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I was responding to a post in Jeff's dynamics thread, and thought I should actually start a new thread.
As I said, I wore myself out talking about issues years ago, especially with educating men about women's issues.
I think men have a huge role, not in helping me or other women directly, but in teaching boys, and other men. Boys have no effing clue about how to treat women and girls. And they have very few role models. There's a dearth of fatherhood in this country and the boys are in a tragic state. So are the girls, but the only way to stop violence is to get to the boys, and this cannot be done by women. Boys are surrounded by women, and they need real men around them. (Cf Robert Bly, Michael Meade, Sam Keane.)
One of the most moving things I ever listened to was two older men telling a violent young teen about how disgusted they were at the way he treated women, especially his mother.
If men focused on cleaning up the male act, then women would be a lot better off. I think it is THE most important thing men can do. (Just as, in a parallel issue, it's up to white people to clean up racism. Black people are sick of the entire subject.)
As I said, I wore myself out talking about issues years ago, especially with educating men about women's issues.
I think men have a huge role, not in helping me or other women directly, but in teaching boys, and other men. Boys have no effing clue about how to treat women and girls. And they have very few role models. There's a dearth of fatherhood in this country and the boys are in a tragic state. So are the girls, but the only way to stop violence is to get to the boys, and this cannot be done by women. Boys are surrounded by women, and they need real men around them. (Cf Robert Bly, Michael Meade, Sam Keane.)
One of the most moving things I ever listened to was two older men telling a violent young teen about how disgusted they were at the way he treated women, especially his mother.
If men focused on cleaning up the male act, then women would be a lot better off. I think it is THE most important thing men can do. (Just as, in a parallel issue, it's up to white people to clean up racism. Black people are sick of the entire subject.)
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Unsu...
Re: men who want to be feminists
Mon, October 2, 2006 - 8:45 PMYour point really resonated with me in that I owe as much to the men in life (most pertinently my father) as I do to the women in my life for teaching me to value and respect women. My father made it a very clear point to me and my brother that women are not beneath men, that we're all equal, and that one should never treat any woman with anything other than respect. He and my mother's marriage was my strongest example of this, in that they've never been anything other than equal partners, sharing equally in everything (generating an income, raising myself and my siblings, cooking, cleaning, and every general family dynamic). He set the example for me, and now it's up to me to pass that on to someone else (I'm gay and I don't think I'll ever have children, but I've been able to impact less than women-friendly heterosexual male friends). -
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Wed, October 4, 2006 - 1:29 PM<<(Just as, in a parallel issue, it's up to white people to clean up racism. Black people are sick of the entire subject.) >>
I was with you right up until that point. White people hardly invented the notion of racism; it is far from correct for the blame to rest solely upon them, nor the burden of righting a condition found the world over. Racism is a war for all peoples to participate in, it belongs to no one group. -
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Thu, October 5, 2006 - 9:41 AMI know this is off topic, but had to respond.
I do not believe in blaming a whole race of people for any one excrutiatingly big problem. Nor grouping a race of people and stating 'they all feel a particular way'. However, lets review history. Europeans spread imperialism and colonialism leading way to racism that was then carried over to this country. So when you say "White people hardly invented the notion of racism." It feels like a defensive knee jerk reaction to a very sensitive subject, one that you're right- effects us all. I agree that those in all races have the potential for fear, hatred and discrimination of other races. But where is that derived from? As long as I have brown skin in this country I am still an "other". Laws may have changed, but attitudes entrenched within institutions that have existed here since the beginning of this country have not. In the short version, what the Europeans did was they brought with them the notion of white as being better in many ways to many groups of people all over the world. They did this through religion among other ways which seeped into indigenous and transported peoples mythology and psyches. Colonialization spread a notion of hierarchy that sought to rule the world, and it has. Institutionalized racism is a result of this power. And while not all white people benefit monetarily from this power, a white or lighter skin color still carries a worth/value in this society and in other colonized areas around the world. It is not enough to say that (racism) "belongs to no one group". I do think that everyone has to own up to their own forms of hatred (warrented or not) and follow them back to their roots and deal with them. But what if those roots are imbedded within a society that sees you as inferior? Both the questions and the answers are never simple. We still have to deal with the old model of the oppressor and the oppressed simply because it still exists.
And back on topic- I think that male feminist attitudes have as much to teach our girls and young women as well as boys and young men. Many of us don't grow up with a male figure that has feminist values and that can effect us very deeply, concerning how we are made to feel about/around the male gender and our relationship with it as a whole.
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Thu, October 5, 2006 - 10:53 AM> Nor grouping a race of people and stating 'they all feel a particular way'.
Sugati you are absolutely right. I was trying to condense a lot of conversations and a lot of reading into a short form!
Also of course there are many and multiple forms of racial prejudice--I'm not so naive as to assume only white people are racist, or that all white people are racist. But I stand by the position that in this culture it is up to white people to educate themselves about racism, rather than expect people of colour to do the work for them. I made my statement about black people being tired of the subject because I have heard the fatigue in the voices of people of colour over and over again about the willful ignorance of white people about their own privilege. And friends of mine who are Black, or Indian or Pakistani or Arab have told me they're not gonna bring up the damn subject unless one of us does, and shows some awareness! And fair enough. So that's what I meant--just that it is up to us to make the extra effort, simply because we're the ones consciously or unconsciously profiting from the system.
It's interesting, for example, that of all the blog postings I have ever made, the only one that got no comments at all was a translation of an extract from a book written by a French Algerian about being a French Algerian. Apparently people just weren't interested....which in itself I find interesting.
As to men, I think there is tremendous power in men, not only in fighting sexism, but also more powrfully in providing real role models to boys, as well as showing girls how men can treat women with respect and love.
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Thu, October 5, 2006 - 1:43 PMRachael- I should have wrote the names of those to which I was referring. Yes, I was responding to your post in which you made reference to one racial group feeling one particular way. But the rest of my post was really in reference to Bannefin's post which was after yours. Sorry to everyone about the confusion.
But Rachael, I for one can definitely identify with those that are tired of having to educate, especially when someone says something offensive even without meaning it. It's similar to males (or even other women) saying sexist things, and having the courage to say something. It gets tiring. Unfortunately in our society it's unlikely that people will make the extra effort to learn, since they think it's not relevant to their survival. But when someone realizes that maybe they have overlooked or unaware of specific information or anothers feelings and they get it- it's worth it in my opinion.
I for one would have been VERY interested in the extract from he French Algerian. I have a interest in Amazigh culture.
Cheers,
Sugati
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Thu, October 5, 2006 - 1:51 PM> Unfortunately in our society it's unlikely that people will make the extra effort to learn, since they think it's not relevant to their survival.
Oh I think it is, but only in a larger sense than that they are aware of!
What is Amazigh culture? Might be a typo, but if it isn't, then I'm curious. The extract is on my blog at smallgreensprouts.blogspot.com, under "disintegration". I translated it on the fly, so it's far from polished. The book, if you read French, is amazing. I read it in one on the flight coming back to te US.
There's a posting called "gulab jamun" on why I think the west is dead, too! -
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Thu, October 5, 2006 - 1:54 PMPS I realise the blog is a bugger to navigate through. They're in May 2006 and June 2006, in the archives. -
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Thu, October 5, 2006 - 11:46 PMmen as feminists
-or-
men who advocate feminism
within the terminology of ms bell hooks lies a kernel which, at least for me, still begs question of where we stand as feminists, as people, as genders, as sexes, as races, as ethnicities, as groups, tribes, families...
how are we a WE? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: men who want to be feminists
Fri, October 6, 2006 - 12:35 PMYou know, it's a funny thing, since the last thread was about "why don't women post on here as much as men?", but only women have posted in this thread on men. The men have gone all quiet. Come out men, the whole point is we need you in this thing too!
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 9:30 PMI agree with you Sugati
I am finding I have to pick my battles, so to speak, or I would be burnt out
I am tired of when I try to point out that something someone said was offence, racist, classicist (spelling?) or sexist, etc. That I should stop being so P.C.
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Sat, October 7, 2006 - 5:00 PM"As to men, I think there is tremendous power in men, not only in fighting sexism, but also more powrfully in providing real role models to boys, as well as showing girls how men can treat women with respect and love. "
this will sound yucky at first, then hopefully go down smooth: we need to appeal to men's self-interest. feminism is good for men. it's about options, it's about honesty, and it's about treating women in a way that develops more nourishing relationships with them. though there are some renunciations involved in being a male feminist, it really has amounted to being in my self-interest. and this is testimony to our true interdependence.
for example, males miss out on the benefit of listening in conversations too much. they often try to prove themselves to being smart, and worth attention. this is a lot of pressure, and it makes them miss out on all the insight and experience other people have to share.
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Sat, October 7, 2006 - 4:55 PM"I agree that those in all races have the potential for fear, hatred and discrimination of other races. But where is that derived from?.... Colonialization spread a notion of hierarchy that sought to rule the world, and it has."
europeans did not bring hierarchy to non-europeans; we as a species have had hierarchy and violence for as long as we know of. if you accept diamond's work, it's really just a matter of access, habitat, and chance that it was europeans that ended up conquering so many people. also, the myth of the noble savage, whether in west africa, south america, or anywhere, has been shattered by anthropology for a long time. indigenous americans did not care for the ecosystem and live in harmony with nature, as many believe.
but you're main point is that racism is wielded and experienced differently whether or not you belong to a group distinguished by having more power and access. and that is vital. i know some people prefer to use the term prejudice as the generic term, while racist denotes prejudice wielded with power, and though it think that's not semantically easy to defend, the distinction is important. -
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Unsu...
Re: men who want to be feminists
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 9:41 AMI disagree with the assertion that men need onlt influence men and boys in order to be helpful to the feminist cause. My lovely novio is a feminist and has great respect for his mother, a strong woman who raised 3 kids on her own. He is a positive male role-model to my daughter, whom he step-fathers.
The need for respectful, progressive, loving males in a young girl's life cannot be understated. It is very important for young girls to recieve positive, non-sexual male attention in order to see themselves as more than just a sexual object. I'm not saying that girls cannot develop feminist attitudes in the absence of such a figure, but a positive male role model certainly helps her along in her development.
It is also imporatnt for young girls (and boys) to see respecftul, equal, loving relationships between their mothers and father-figures modeled for them. So, I think that men definately have a greater role in the development of confident, compassionate, feminist (equalist?) children other than just influencing boys. -
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 10:30 AM> the assertion that men need onlt influence men and boys in order to be helpful
I didn't say only. (Or even onlt.) I agree. -
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Unsu...
Re: men who want to be feminists
Tue, October 24, 2006 - 4:33 PMdamn that t and y being so close to each other!
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Re: men who want to be feminists
Tue, October 31, 2006 - 9:10 PMI feel it is not just up to men to educate young boys(even though positive role models are important).
Even women treat there boy children different somtimes better than the way they threat their daughters.
Also, we as women' need to be aware of this, and also how we treat ourselfs(self love, respect, etc) our children notice these things.