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Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

topic posted Fri, January 19, 2007 - 11:13 AM by  Jon 		Share/Save/Bookmark
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Jon
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  • Cornel
    Cornel
    offline 38

    Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

    Fri, January 19, 2007 - 12:19 PM
    Notice how Karen Armstrong makes absolutely no mention of Hinduism - the most obvious example of a religion in which Divinity is represented as feminine. And she also completely ignores the fact that there is a whole movement that is now decades old devoted to restoring the idea of the Divine Feminine - and that this movement has strong, organic links to contemporary feminism.
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    • Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

      Fri, January 19, 2007 - 12:36 PM
      As a longtime pagan, I have grown over time seriously impatient with the 'idea of the Divine Feminine.'

      For one thing, historically and anthropologically, there is no such thing, as a single entity. For another, (and Hinduism is a good example), the presence of major female deities in a culture rarely, if ever corresponds to any degree of authority for actual women--in fact often quite the opposite. And finally, the glorification of certain attributes designated 'feminine' (typically some cthonic combination of reproductive capacity and unpredictable murderousness), is hardly feminist or even revolutionary. Rather, it finds its historical roots in good old 19th-century paternalistic fantasies.
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      • Cornel
        Cornel
        offline 38

        Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

        Fri, January 19, 2007 - 2:11 PM
        I'm all for cutting through the kind of "projections" you are talking about. But I honestly think that once this is done there is still something very substantial that remains. You seem to be saying that it's all bathwater and no baby.

        Just because we have moved beyond Merlin Stone's "revelations" doesn't mean that we are done with the Goddess (or that She is done with us), in my opinion. At the risk of shameless self-promotion I will mention that I have put up a little web page titled "Goddess Worship Before Goddess Worship Was Cool": www.egregores.org/goddess_worship.html

        None of the examples that I cite there come from "matriarchal" societies, obviously (since there is a good likelihood that such things never existed). Nor do they come from societies that could even remotely be called "non-patriarchal". Nevertheless - there She is.
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        • Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

          Fri, January 19, 2007 - 5:42 PM
          Fair enough Curt, and your web page is definitely better than most. I like the reference to Apuleius. It _is_ hard to assess the role that Isis playes in the Golden Ass though--not so much because Isis worship is actually atypical in ancient Rome (there's plenty of evidence to suggest the contrary), but because all other _actual_ women in that book are so very treacherous, _except_ for Isis. The other element I find noteworthy is that the main character's conversion to the Isis cult involved celibacy, ie, a complete withdrawal from the specifically sexual treachery of the live women in the story.

          You might add to your collection the story of Inanna--check out the edition by Kramer and Wolkstein if you haven't. Irish sagas are also pretty well riddled with interesting goddess figures. The Eleusinian Mysteries are another good example.

          I do find the concept of "The Universal Feminine" objectionable, both intellectually and viscerally. As I said, there really is no such thing historically, and gender traits simply are not universal, either historically and anthropologically. Also, I get too many echoes not so much of Merlin Stone as Robert Graves and Dan Brown, both of whom I want to punch in the nads (though I'm kind of fond of Graves).

          I wonder what's in the concept for you?

          For me, actually reading and studying the literary materials that survive (in translation mostly. My rigor extended only so far as to learn Old Irish), serves as an intensely valuable corrective for current gender assumptions. The Isis cult interests me because of its longevity (4000 years). The story of Inanna interests me not so much because of the stuff about Dumuzi, though that's not bad, as the story of Inanna and her sister Erishkegal. Similarly, Demeter and Persephone are mythologically interesting because the story isn't, in its original context a harvest story at all, but rather the story of a mother who pushed up against the power of Zeus and Hades, and whose daughter represents the potential of transformation.

          Both of those stories involve women who can successfully transition between life and death, and whose primary relationships are with female relatives--a literary fact that is rarely discussed, because notions of universal femininity ordinarily focus on the power of goddesses to inspire (or punish) men and/or give birth to children. But there's nothing 'universal' about these myths--they are specific to their cultures. The rites were different, the practices were different, and most important, the stories changed over time and retellings and/or appropriations by conquering nations and through various translations.

          What appears to be universality is more often than not merely the result of retrospective homogenization.
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          • Cornel
            Cornel
            offline 38

            Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

            Fri, January 19, 2007 - 9:24 PM
            Intelligent conversations are so .... disorienting.

            I admit that I am a sucker for Apuleius - and I forgive him his sins. In fact it's worse than that - I'm a sucker for Platonists, especially Isis worshipping Platonists. But then again, I also love Dostoyevski, but that doesn't mean I *agree* with him - you know? But I do broadly agree with Apuleius' take on Isis, or "the Goddess", in general. So did Cornelius Agrippa, by the way - Agrippa quotes several passages from Apuleius word for word, without attribution, from the 12th chapter (the one with all the good parts). A friend pointed this out to me (I am very slowly learning Latin). Agrippa just changes "O Isis, You are...." to "Isis, she is" so that a "hymn" becomes a mere description. He also changes "Isis" to "Venus" sometimes, and sometime to "the Moon", so that he can pass theology (or "thealogy") off as mere "astrology". Anyway - the thing that I like about Agrippa is that he is separated from Apuleius more than I am from Agrippa - so if I'm just "retrospectively homogenizing" at least I've got good company (or famous company, anyway). Or something like that. And Agrippa was something of a feminist, too - at least by 16th century standards.

            I don't know much about Inanna. She probably needs to be added to my Goddess page. And I have to admit that I am almost completely ignorant when it comes to Dumezil. I get the heeby-jeebies when people start talking about "Indo-Europeans" - even though some of my best friends are Indo-Europeans. I really think the whole ethnicity thing is way overdone - especially when it comes to Indo-Europeans. I mean, the Etruscans weren't Indo-Europeans, and yet they are central to the mythology of the founding of Rome - and they were also central to Roman religion. The Carthagenians weren't Indo-Europeans, and yet they were Juno's "favorites" in the Aeneid. I'm not arguing with you now - I'm arguing with Dumezil (in my head). My friend that I mentioned above told me that Dumezil has to do some fancy footwork to dance around the Etruscan contribution to Roman culture and religion. But my friend is nuts for things Etrurian - and he also says I should read Dumezil anyway.

            As far as what's "in the concept for me" with respect to "the Divine Feminine" - my bottom line is that everyone accepts that Divinity is supposed to transcend gender, so to the extent that Divinity is anthropomorphized (and I prefer Gods with faces rather than amorphous blobs or geometric designs - or empty space) then there should, at the very least be two of Them - one of each. But really I think there should be lots of Them - preferably a never ending fractal cascade in every direction, including ones I don't know about.

            I'm also really interested in the various versions of the Demeter Persephone story - and I'm intrigued by what you say about "the story of a mother who pushed up against the power of Zeus and Hades, and whose daughter represents the potential of transformation." Do you think that this view was at all incorporated into the Eleusinian Mysteries?
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            • Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

              Sat, January 20, 2007 - 8:57 AM
              Yeah, I heart Platonists too, even though dualism is all their fault.

              Inanna is a terrific story, and really quite accessible. The current translation is a collaboration by Diana Wolkstein, a professional storyteller and artist, and Samuel Kramer, a Sumerologist. If you haven't heard of Inanna, you've probably surely heard of the Babylonian Ishtar, whose worship supplanted that of Inanna--if only because of the really appalling movie. It's one of the oldest written stories, and is contemporaneous with Gilgamesh--the two stories overlap in places, in fact.

              Your long riff about Dumezil and Indo-European stuff seemed to be missing a connective piece. How did you get there?

              >'m also really interested in the various versions of the Demeter Persephone story - and I'm intrigued by what you say about "the story of a mother who pushed up against the power of Zeus and Hades, and whose daughter represents the potential of transformation." Do you think that this view was at all incorporated into the Eleusinian Mysteries?

              The connection is pretty explicit in The Homeric Hymn to Demeter, which is the earliest known written account of the story, and of the Mysteries. There are several translations of this floating around, some maybe on the net. It's also pretty accessible.
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              • Cornel
                Cornel
                offline 38

                Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

                Sat, January 20, 2007 - 10:33 AM
                >> Your long riff about Dumezil and Indo-European stuff seemed to be missing a connective piece. How did you get there? <<

                That was just the voices in my head. Whenever I hear "Dumezil" I have a knee-jerk response to start talking about Indo-Europeans. Sometimes this even happens when I see "Dumuzi". I am hypersensitized, I guess - in the sense of responding to the stimulus even when it's not really there! Also I've been reading a lot about Etruscans......... Sorry about that.
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                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

                  Tue, February 6, 2007 - 11:58 AM
                  I may just be a piece of brocolli but women haven't always had it so bad in the past, if they liked being homebodies. As far as a divine feminine form goes, none can compare to the glories of Srimati Radharani, who I am not qualified to mention, and in fact I think I may be wrong in even doing so in here, because we cannot take Her position very lightly. She is the internal potency of Lord Sri Krishna, said to be the source of Vishnu Himself, His expansion and God to a majority of Hindus. Information about Her divinity is available at www.krishna.com . Or just ask me why I love Her and I will try to tell answer any questions. But She has been kept hidden in the Vedas, the books of wisdom from ancient India and it takes a follower of Her's to bring knowledge of Her to light sometimes.
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                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    lori
                    lori
                    offline 123

                    Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

                    Tue, February 6, 2007 - 12:30 PM
                    "women haven't always had it so bad"

                    So, we should just submit to men?

                    What if we don't WANT to be the internal potency of Krishna? What if we want to be the our own internal potency? What if we don't want our well-being to be determined by the benevolence of some male? Yes, sometimes the oppressed are not treated badly, and sometimes even slaves have generous masters...that doesn't mean people should be slaves, or women should be subject to men. Religion oppresses women when it make them second class citizens, and not determiners of their own fate.
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                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

                      Tue, February 6, 2007 - 12:40 PM
                      Lori,
                      Some devotees worship Krishna, the male potency, some worship Krishna and Radharani together, and some worship Radharani as the Supreme. I can't hide the fact that I love Radharani. If Radharani wishes to be Supreme I say more power to Her. Whatever mood She is in I will serve Her.
                      I suppose I could adopt my own mood and not wish to serve anyone, certainly not any man. And maybe I could control some other woman or just let her be free to choose as she wants. But there is so much pleasure to serving Srimati Radharani that it is described to be like a snowball that gets bigger and bigger the farther it goes down the hill. When we finally get run over the snowball of love coming from Radharani down to us it is so overwhelming that we little souls can't take it all, and we pray to not be in so much ecstacy because we won't be able to continue on with our service to Her which is the very thing that brought us so much ecstacy in the first place.
                      I do not like men, so I am not saying a woman's place is to serve a man. The concept is always there so far as I know for a woman to remain without a man and to serve the Supreme Being(in my case Radharani)and that is better than being married.
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                • Cornel
                  Cornel
                  offline 38

                  Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

                  Wed, February 7, 2007 - 6:46 AM
                  Knee-jerk criticisms of Hinduism on the basis of the the treatment of women as well as the caste system are simply stock-in-trades that date back to British colonialism. That doesn't mean that these issues aren't real, but whenever you find yourself repeating arguments that were used to support colonialism, you really should think about it. In fact, the exact same kinds of arguments were used to justify the Africa Slave trade as well as genocide against native americans. Civilizing these wife-beating savages and their oppressive societies is called "the white man's burden."

                  The point is to lose the superior attitude - that's all. Do many Hindus still perpetuate the caste-system? Yes. Do many Hindus embrace egalitarianism? Yes. Have many Hindu teachers explicitly taught egalitarian ideas? Yes. Are women empowered in Hinduism in ways that were completely closed to all women in Christendom until relatively recent times - and that still are closed to the majority of Christian women? Yes.
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      • Kip
        Kip
        offline 57

        Re: Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions down through the ages?

        Tue, February 6, 2007 - 1:05 PM
        CLAPS FOR SHANNON.

        A female god is NOT indicative of a female oriented society, nor equality for women.

        Want to bring up hinduism... exactly which gender is forced into marriages? And, oh yes, which gender is it that is supposed to sacrifice themselves upon the death of their husband?


        In my studying over the last 20 years, i've found very few *real* examples of women being strongly supported to be powerful, active, dominant members of society from their religion. Some native American tribes come to mind... and there is even new and compelling questions about the roles of women in so-called matriarchal societeis. not sure how much to make of those yet, since all of our "evidence" is anecdotal at this point... but the sort answer

        "no, women have not fared well in the face of world religion"
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