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The Family Romance by Freud has & is a contentious subject for many...& has also been marred & hidden behind some people fears around incest or abuse....especially when it comes to the Electa Complex...tell me do any of you have any views on this deep & hidden aspect to our sexual personae?
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, August 22, 2006 - 10:30 AMYou mean other than the view that it is nonsense? My view is that Freud was on the right track with his trauma theory but he couldn't face the reality that so many women had been traumatized nor could he face the implications in his own life. Rather than acknowledge the wide spread sexual abuse he decided it was the fantasy of his women patients. -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, August 22, 2006 - 11:35 AMI agree with Lori, plus he simply reversed what he found true for boys, which is ludicrous given childrearing practises. Read the Mermaid and the Minotaur for a good new take by Dorothy Dinerstein, or if you read French, Christiane Olivier--can't remember the title, agh, senior moment.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, August 22, 2006 - 12:35 PMI think you may be confusing two quite different Freudian psychoanalytic concepts in this post. The "family romance" has nothing to do with the Oedipus/Electra complex but rather is the common early childhood fantasy that one's parents are not one's "real" parents and that one's real parents are better, nobler, more perfect, etc. and may arrive at any time to rescue one from the misery of having to put up with parents who have recently been revealed as imperfect, unreliable and all too human. The term "romance" here has absolutely nothing to do with sex, but rather is used in its original sense of "fiction" or fantasy.
Freud was hardly the first to observe this phenomenon, although he may have been the first to explicitly conceptualize it. As a literary trope, the family romance has deep roots in the West, with variations on it appearing even in classical fiction (as well as fairytales and folklore: the "ugly duckling" theme has its roots in this fantasy, and the transfigured prince/princess probably displaces elements of this fantasy onto a potential romantic partner, allowing the fantasy to be carried into adulthood). It reached its peak in the 18th century, particularly in France, where just about every popular novel of the period featured some form of this fantasy. Eminent modern-day feminist Freudian, Ethel Spector Person, devotes considerable space in her book 'By Force of Fantasy' to a discussion of the family romance and the social conditions that fostered its widespread popularity in pre-revolutionary France. Very interesting reading.
Some Freudians believe the transference process between analyst and patient embodies in a useful, therapeutic way aspects of the family romance fantasy (with the therapist essentially playing the role of the imaginary "real" parent).
As for the Electra complex, probably the less said the better. While most contemporary Freudians wholeheartedly adopt the Oedipus complex, few seem to find the Electra complex as it stands in early psychoanalytic writings, convincing or useful. Because of both human biology and most societies' child-rearing practices, the Oedipus and Electra complexes are not truly analogous. The very choice of Electra as the embodiment for this complex makes this quite clear: unlike Oedipus, Electra doesn't marry her father, nor does she ever express any sexual desire for him; in fact, if any incest can be imagined in this particular myth it would have to be sibling incest, as Electra seems extravagantly affectionate towards and passionately obsessed with her brother, Orestes. While there may well be daughters who desire their fathers, the fact that a more suitable female embodiment for this complex could not be found says a lot about its validity and universality -or lack thereof (father-daughter incest does occur in classical literature and myth, but virtually always due to the father's desire; the daughter is generally portrayed as the unwilling victim of an evil, unnatural man's lust). It's important to note too, that Freud himself did NOT come up with the Electra complex (Carl Jung actually proposed the name) and seemed to have serious reservations regarding the reasoning required to make it "work".
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Sat, August 26, 2006 - 11:22 PMThe Electra & Oedipus complexes are I was given to understand are a standard romantic or/& sexually possible reflection of that fantasy projected towards ones father or mother??
The family romance I thought was the relationships we have within the archaic family...which defines who we like, who we hate, our ralationships etc, etc from birth until death?? -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Sun, August 27, 2006 - 2:09 AMi'm a little disoriented. people are speaking as if there is no truth to the idea of an erotic dimension to familiial relationships. is there no substance at all to the oedipus/electra complexes? -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, August 28, 2006 - 5:27 AMI certainly think there is Jeff...but it seems like an either denial or deep seated complex...whenever I discuss this subject it brings up arguements like family sexual grooming ethics & such like...yes?..does this resound in others minds? -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, August 28, 2006 - 6:49 AMI haven't uncovered so much as a trace of such in my own cellf explorations, and seen almost no evidence of it in observations of others.
I think freud was out to lunch on this one.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, August 28, 2006 - 11:09 AMi just recently entered a long thread on this in another tribe, so my stamina for it is a bit exhausted, but my general point was that eroticism operates along a continuum in all instances of human contact, and that it is not a switch that is somehow turned off in the family. this is different than saying we actively sexually desire our parents, which does happen, but is probably more in the fleeting thought category for most people, rather than a obsessional pursuit. evolution simply is unlikely to be able to build a brain that automatically differentiates, say, the cleavage of your mother from that of a peer where sexuality is not taboo. it's likely that there is a secondary forebrain process that shuffles it into taboo category. the mechanics of westermarck effect is a real thing that may even partially explain sexual orientation, as well as the incest taboo.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect
according to donald brown's review of human universals -- which we can take with a grain of salt -- both incest taboos and oedipal complexes are universal and seen in every human culture known.
marrying first cousins is legal in most states still, sexuality in the family -- both forcible and otherwise (one could easily argue that any sexual contact between parent and offspring, no matter the age, is coerced) -- is fairly common.
sexuality is almost a physical organ of the human psyche and doesn't just disappear when some people walk in the room. that being said, ewwwww!!!
also, the heterosexism of freud's theories is obvious.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, September 11, 2006 - 9:51 PMLynne, what makes you bring this topic up? i'm curious if your work has revealed a lot of this area of the human underbelly.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, August 28, 2006 - 11:29 AMAcknowledging the existence of erotic attraction within the family and upholding the universal validity of the very specific stages of the Oedipus complex are two entirely different things in my opinion. The two ideas are *not* synonymous.
To my mind, Freud's work on sexuality (unlike his brilliant work on the unconscious mind) is generally very weak and the most clearly biased by, and reflective of, his era, culture and upbringing. The Oedipus complex assumes, virtually without question, the universal existence of the modern-day "Western" nuclear family, as well as the essential heterosexuality of all its members (homosexuality being posited mainly as a tragic failure to negotiate the developmental stages of the Oedipus complex as well as the three earlier stages of sexual development Freud outlined in 'Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality'). The Electra complex requires the adherent to accept not only the prevalence of the nuclear family and heteronormativity, but the reality of "penis envy"! No wonder, at this point in time, it's mainly only die-hard followers of Jacques Lacan (who converted Freud's "penis" to the far more theoretical and philosophical "phallus" and outlined what is essentially a theory of power relations rather than erotics per se) who can seriously discuss the Electra complex without snickering.
(FWIW, I *do* believe erotic attraction exists within the family, although more as faint "background noise" than the massive ear-drum shattering Mahlerian symphony it's so often made out to be since Freud. Also, I think it's important to remember any time we talk about the "family", that the constitution of that social unit varies widely throughout the world-trying to imagine anything like the Oedipus complex among the Na of China's Himalayan foothills (who do not socially acknowledge fatherhood and do not practice marriage) is highly amusing if not a little mind-boggling!) -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, August 28, 2006 - 12:25 PM"Acknowledging the existence of erotic attraction within the family and upholding the universal validity of the very specific stages of the Oedipus complex are two entirely different things in my opinion."
*entirely* different things, as in not related? that seems to be a powerful dismissal of any notion that eroticism in the family might have an impact on anyone's personality, and i need to hear more than you've said to understand your point of view. and no one said anything particularly about the validity of freud's stages -- i was salvaging a more general relevance than that.
"The Oedipus complex assumes, virtually without question, the universal existence of the modern-day "Western" nuclear family, as well as the essential heterosexuality of all its members"
i acknowledged freud's heterosexism and agree with you. i'm not sure if we recast it without heterosexism that we are left with nothing, no impact on familial dynamics. also, though the nuclear family is not the only form, the vast majority of children are raised primarily by their biological parents. i can't tell how far this critique goes. finding exceptions like the na is important -- i am always vigilant of theory's tendency to smooth over diversity and working against it -- but i'm not sure it goes so far as to say the theory is useless. (also, note that the westermarck effect is not limited to families per se.)
so, generally speaking, what i am trying to get at is the possibility that eroticism in the family does affect one's personality. you have good reasons to criticize freud's casting of the issue, but i can't yet see how your points work to push the issue to meaningless background noise.
from my point of view there are a number of valid dimensions to the issue:
1) the fact that there is eroticism in the family and that it is taboo and largely unconscious most likely has some effects.
2) the economy of eroticism in the family is related to power dynamics around parental investment, where sibling rivalry, jealousy, and competition among family members for the attention of a parent is a very real force.
3) that the narrative of how imprinting and eroticism plays out between offspring and parents may have an effect on the sexual identity of the child. a "mama's boy" or "daddy's girl." this links to bem's "exotic becomes erotic" theory of sexual orientation, which is linked to the westermarck effect.
thanks for sharing your thoughts on this! i am open-minded and willing to learn from your apparent breadth of knowledge on this subject.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, August 28, 2006 - 1:57 PMYou wrote: "*entirely* different things, as in not related? that seems to be a powerful dismissal of any notion that eroticism in the family might have an impact on anyone's personality, and i need to hear more than you've said to understand your point of view."
Jeff, I think you are misreading my post. I have to admit that I really don't understand how you came up with this interpretation based on what I wrote.
As I clearly wrote that I *do* believe in the existence of erotic attraction within the "family" (however that family may be constituted) and I said nothing about such attraction's impact on an individual's personality, I am not quite sure what you're questioning here. Both my posts merely sought to clarify terms and to note that the "Oedipus complex" *as outlined by Freud* (damn the lack of italics!) is culturally and chronologically quite specific and the term "Oedipus complex" should really not be used as shorthand for intrafamilial erotic attraction (unless, of course, you're a die-hard Freudian, a species which seems to be rapidly dying out). As I'm sure you're aware, it's entirely possible to discuss the incest taboo and erotic desire within the family without reference to Freud (just as it's possible to discuss the social groupings of early man and the evolution of society and institutions like marriage without reference to Freud's rather risible "primal horde" theory). It appeared to me, however, and I assume to the other posters here, that Lynne was specifically referencing Freud's theories and asking what people think of those particular theories, not of the existence or universality of said taboo or desires.
That's it. Nothing more. Just attempting to keep terms straight and to address what seemed to be Lynne's original query. -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, August 28, 2006 - 3:31 PM"it's entirely possible to discuss the incest taboo and erotic desire within the family without reference to Freud"
okay, so let's discuss it! i think you're right, that keeping the terms oedipus/electra complex around isn't getting us anywhere. i was equating them with discussions about familial eroticism and personality too much and projected that on to you and got in trouble. but alas, now that we are clear, i am most interested in the phenomenon, the lived experience, not the historical theoretical framework of anyone else!
what are your thoughts then?
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Mon, August 28, 2006 - 9:34 PMi want to take a moment and acknowledge what a sensitive topic this is. i know many people have been taken advantage of by family members, and my deepest empathy and care goes out to them. in discussing this issue, i in no way am validating sexual expression between parents and their offspring. -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 11:15 AMSee what I mean? discussing a subject like sex & then even mentioning the family dynamics, even in the broadest sense just brings up a pile of people taking it personally...it really bugs me. I do realise like Jeff that it is a delicate subject...but....surely we can discuss sex in the whole of its dynamics without offending people at some level? If not...what hope for a better understanding of who we are & what we are about??
We must move on sometimes from being sensitive & get to the bones of life & sex, in ALL its forms...even sex in minors must begin to be discussed, or even paediophilia...why leave it purely to specialist counsellors to discuss, when it is so common & rife in our societies...I was one of those counsellors, & to talk outside of private & personal situations was always a no, no....when are we going to each & all level the burden of responsibility & understanding, without either being screamed at or others thinking we are advocating sex, either in the incest form or the paediophile form? -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 11:33 AMyes, you're right. thanks for being brave.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 12:09 PMI don't know that disagreeing implies taking it personally. Freud was shocked at the amount of sex occuring within families, he couldn't accept that parents were sexually abusing their offspring so he put it on the children (they "wanted" sex with their parent). That is nonsense. Children may have vague longings, mild attractions, jealousies, curiosities, etc. but that is a far cry from "wanting sex". The idea that children want sex before they even know what sex is, is the cry of the abuser and the pedophile. -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 1:35 PM"Children may have vague longings, mild attractions, jealousies, curiosities, etc. but that is a far cry from "wanting sex". The idea that children want sex before they even know what sex is, is the cry of the abuser and the pedophile."
most theories i'm familiar with, including freud's, are not just about sex. they are about the politics of love and more general eroticism (as in, eros) in the family. "vague longings, mild attractions, jealousies, curiosities" can amount to more than curious pebbles on the beach.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 12:51 PMSorry, but I don't see this happening here. I certainly don't see anyone, besides perhaps you, taking this subject or the subsequent responses personally.
You asked what people thought of the Electra and Oedipus complexes, two culturally and chronologically specific theories associated primarily with one thinker. People gave you their honest answers: answers ranging from "it's nonsense" to an attempt to define terms and make the point that sexual attraction within the family need not be discussed using only the Freudian paradigms. While the answers may not have been the sort you were looking for, I certainly don't see anyone "screaming", nor do I see anyone "offended" or attempting to shut the discussion down. I think most people here just don't have much respect for this particular thinker and set of theories or much interest in this topic (one of the reasons I didn't answer Jeff's last query was because this topic simply holds no significant personal or theoretical interest for me as a feminist or a human being at this point in my life-I figured others who found it more interesting or relevant to their lives would chime in).
I find the topic of human sexuality, including the highly contentious subject of the sexuality of minors, extremely interesting. A good 30% of my personal library is given over to works, academic, medical, philosophical and literary, focused solely on the subject of sex. I just don't find discussing it in terms of theories that are questionable in their relevance to today's society and which seemed reactionary or fanciful even during their own era to be all that interesting.
You might find a more lively and more welcoming discussion of your interest in these theories at a Freud or Lacan tribe. I don't know of such a tribe but I imagine one must surely exist-there are tribes for almost everything under the sun! -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 1:13 PMI sure haven't taken anything personally.
I strongly agree with lori's post. I had not though it through that far, and am thankful for that insight. It matches completely with my personal experience ...................that's not the same as taking things personally is it? I think there have been a number of good insights here, and think we come to a clearer picture with more of the light of our personal experiences shined on a subject, but not take offense.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 1:32 PM"one of the reasons I didn't answer Jeff's last query was because this topic simply holds no significant personal or theoretical interest for me as a feminist or a human being at this point in my life-I figured others who found it more interesting or relevant to their lives would chime in"
you could've said that. you were aware that i engaged you personally after we had just had a previous exchange. it sure looked like you either didn't have online access or got uncomfortable to me. and you sure felt it was engaging enough to deride and chime in on its "irrelevance"! the topic was never just about freud's opinion, either, to me.
" I just don't find discussing it in terms of theories that are questionable in their relevance to today's society "
again, we weren't just talking about freud, we were talking about the incest taboo/westermarck effect and its meaning. if you think it's irrelevant, i'd love to hear why! -
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 2:51 PM"again, we weren't just talking about freud, we were talking about the incest taboo/westermarck effect and its meaning. "
Actually, up to my last post on the subject, I did sincerely think we were talking specifically about Freud since the Freudian terms were broached initially and used almost exclusively after that and my posts addressed only those issues (I probably would not have posted to this topic otherwise-recent discussions of Freud and Freudian terminology with others off Tribe had the subject uppermost in my mind). I'm sorry you found my attempts at clarifying the terms under discussion derisory-that certainly wasn't my intention. I am a highly analytical thinker and rarely invest my posts on theoretical subjects with much emotion or "personality"; occasionally people find that off-putting or upsetting, reading my emotional coolness as contempt. Perhaps that's the case here-again, it certainly was not my intention.
"you could've said that. you were aware that i engaged you personally after we had just had a previous exchange. it sure looked like you either didn't have online access or got uncomfortable to me."
I assumed you weren't addressing me specifically, but rather opening the floor to discussion of inter-familial sexual attraction beyond the boundaries of the Oedipus/Electra complex. As I noted previously, while I'm not uncomfortable with the subject, I also had nothing of any special interest to say, certainly nothing personal relating to "lived experience" as you requested. I figured that someone else with fresher memories or a deeper interest might chime in. I do apologize for not making this clear immediately-it just seemed silly to post something merely to say I didn't have anything particularly illuminating to share.
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 3:26 PMi wasn't misreading your analytic style as derision. i dig your style, and i learn from you big time. what i meant to convey is your focus on casting the topic in only a dismissive way -- making almost no statements acknowledging interfamilial attraction.
also, note that i quoted you, then asked "what are your thoughts then?" and was rather obviously addressing you. and i think it's perfectly okay that you didn't respond. i'm sorry for being pushy about it before. i would've liked to have benefited from your insight about this topic more, but you are not inspired to share your thoughts, and i accept that!
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Re: The Electa & Oedipus complexes
Tue, September 12, 2006 - 3:28 PM"certainly nothing personal relating to "lived experience" as you requested"
i meant the phenomenology of it, not personal anecdotes.
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