Can a feminst be "pro-life"

topic posted Tue, May 22, 2007 - 8:30 AM by  Kip
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Anyone who has read my posts on abortion knows i'm almost troll like, in my stubbornness on this issue. but i keep comming back to more and more arguments that either, as in the NY Times yesterday, make ENTIRE arguments about "when life begins", without ONCE mentioning the word "woman"; or, make comments such as the one here, paraphrase of Kennedy.

But last month’s Supreme Court decision upholding the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act marked a milestone for a different argument advanced by anti-abortion leaders, one they are increasingly making in state legislatures around the country. They say that abortion, as a rule, is not in the best interest of the woman; that women are often misled or ill-informed about its risks to their own physical or emotional health; and that the interests of the pregnant woman and the fetus are, in fact, the same. (www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22...ortion.html


To me, making abortion illegal means teh state is pro Forced Pregnancies.

So teh question is quite simple. do you think, as feminists, that a postion can exist that is "pro-life" and feminist at teh same time?
posted by:
Kip
offline Kip
Denver
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  • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

    Tue, May 22, 2007 - 8:32 AM
    by teh way, if we as women must be informed of the health dangers of abortion, should we not ALSO be necessarily informed of the health dangers of BIRTH?

    seems to me, when you have 1 in 100,000 deaths due to abortion per year, and 1 in roughly 12,000 deaths do to BIRTH and pregnancy complications, the real danger is having babies. so, if the state were out to "protect women" as Kennedy states, it would be far more critical to inform women taht having babies is dangerous work.


    (sorry, again, for the rant.)
    • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

      Tue, May 22, 2007 - 8:55 AM
      Well, hmm.

      Boiled down to the simplest talking points, if feminism ultimately is "pro-choice" in the wider sense, meaning that it advocates a woman's right to choose her life for herself with equal opportunities and equal rewards, than it follows that one of those choices is to choose not to have an abortion.

      One reason, to my mind, is the conviction that the fetus _is_ a life, which no amount of quibbling about gobs of inert tissue really addresses.

      I think that the term "pro life" is needlessly divisive. To hold the personal view that life begins at the moment of conception (possibly even before), is not the same as the desire to force that view on all other women.

      I think that individual views on abortion are complicated. I am very glad I was never forced to make that choice, because as a pagan, I happen to hold the view that I outlined above. I would have to spend a lot of time negotiating with the spirit who wanted to incarnate. On the other hand, I would not dream of legislating my personal morality, and find all attempts to do so appalling.

      It seems like a trick question also, to set up the question as "can X though be feminist?" It implies that feminists are somehow only allowed a certain pre-defined range of beliefs and behavior. The question itself is antithetical to to the notion of choice.
      • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

        Tue, May 22, 2007 - 9:46 AM
        "pro choice" to me, means you have the right to choose *for yourself* not to have an abortion. you don't have a right to choose for others.

        So, is it possible to be "pro-woman" "pro woman's equality" and still feel that a fetus has a right to be born, despite teh wishes of the adult woman in whom the fetus resides?
        • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

          Tue, May 22, 2007 - 9:59 AM
          I would definitely advocate the right of the mother to determine her life for herself over the right of the fetus to be born, if the mother were anybody other than I.

          If I were to get pregnant due to my own actions, in a consensual situation _and_ I was financially and more or less emotionally equipped to raiser a child, then I _might_ feel an obligation to follow through with the events my own behavior set in motion, despite my very strong wishes to remain child-free. Fortunately for me, I haven't had to make that choice. My antipathy against the thought of motherhood was so intense that I used birth control unwaveringly during my fertile years, and willed against any chance impregnation with pretty much every corpuscle.

          I think that requiring others to feel as I do would be morally wrong.
  • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

    Tue, May 22, 2007 - 9:09 AM
    It seems the primary objection to enforced pregnancy has been lost in the shuffle. The right has successfully made it an issue of when life begins and has negated the issue of whether or not a woman should be forced to endure a pregnancy she may not want or be ready for, or that may even be harmful to her. Once again, the woman is forgotten because -- hey, don't you know we're just the borrowed womb, not individuals with a right to determine the course of our own lives. Needless to say, if men could get pregnant, not only would abortion be legal but the means to avoid unwanted pregnancy would be a human right.
    • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

      Tue, May 22, 2007 - 9:24 AM
      Oh, I see. If I'm undertanding right, then your question becomes something like can a feminist advocate a circumstance in which a woman is either forced to bear a child against her will, or in which a woman 'chooses' a child without being informed of the full risks of childbirth? And implicitly, since the answer to that is obviously 'no, of course not because that is not a pro-choice position in the full, liberal humanist sense of the term,' your deeper question is 'so what are we as feminists doing about the fact that this is already occuring, besides letting ourselves get distracted by the way the Right forces its agenda, and along with it completely frames the terms of the abortion discussion?'

      That is a question that is much harder to answer. If that's what you mean, I would agree that we currently suck at thinking and acting clearly. We're still badly in reactive mode, and the recent Court decision hasn't helped at all, and nobody much has even raised a squeak of protest.
      • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

        Tue, May 22, 2007 - 9:50 AM
        well, that wasn't my question - but it's a far better question. :-)


        my question was simple, cause the article i was reading cited "women for women's rights" who are a pro-life group. and "feminists against abortion" (which if thier goal is to encourage women not to abort - is fine, to me. but if they are for laws preventing abortion - seems very ANIT woman).
        • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

          Mon, June 4, 2007 - 6:59 PM
          I don't consider those who call themselves "pro-life" to really be pro-life. These people aren't out there welcoming into their bosoms the unplanned, unwanted children they've encouraged some unwed mother to bring to full term in the name of pro-life. That's just a cushy term they use to describe themselves, and to make those on the other side of the coin look like "baby killers." They are really "anti-abortion" and "anti-birth control", plain and simple. Everyone is essentially pro-life, because the opposite (in a strictly black and white argument) is pro-death. The opposite of pro-choice isn't pro-life, it's anti-choice, and we all know this to be true. But what ever these groups want to call themselves and their movement, they are very scary. Every woman, regardless of her view on abortion, should see what this is really all about - taking away all our choices.

          And Kip, you are absolutely no troll. You are an incredibly sapient woman who totally gets the point of this tribe. I have thoroughly enjoyed all the posts which you have left. Keep up the great work!
          • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

            Wed, June 13, 2007 - 9:24 PM
            I refuse to play into the semantic game of using the term "pro life".

            Pro life doesn't exist-- because there is no one who is "pro death" stance...

            Their anti-abortionists. Anti-choice. To call them anything else is to get sucked into their psuedo-moral framing of the issue of a grown adult being able to decide what happens to their bodies.
            • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

              Thu, June 14, 2007 - 7:54 AM
              Brownback says abortion shouldn't even be allowed in cases of rape. in his every so informed opinion on this topic (seeing as how he is an expert on being pregnant due to rape), he has said "Rape is terrible. Rape is awful. Is it made any better by killing an innocent child? Does it solve the problem for the woman that's been raped?" Brownback said, according to an AP report.

              "does it solf teh problem for the woman that has been raped?" well, if she is pregnant with an unwanted child, it surely solves ONE of her problems. If she got an std from teh rape, would the good senator suggest that she should not bother with medication, since that does not *solve* the problem of the rape. she is still raped and teh rapist is still at large.

              I am so sick of men making something so amazignly personal, often seriously self-damaging and usually quite frightening as unwanted pregnancy into a matter to win votes. I'm so sick of men (yes men) thinking that the fact that they do not like a procedure, or that THEY want to have lots of little babies in OUR wombs is an acceptable reason to deny us teh very civil right of making choices that are best for our own health care, our own lives, and yes... our own HEALTH AND SURVIVAL.

              How dare someone say "well, only 400 women had this procedure in 2002, so it's clearly not important". it was to those 400 women, just fucking ask them.

              How dare they say "well, it's icky" or "some women aren't strong enough to handle knowing about the procedure" or "women sometimes regrete this". Life is ikcy. life is filled with decesions we'd rather not make, including that of killing our own kids -- and frankly, given teh circumstances in question, usually WANTED kids.

              I cannot imagine the pain of knowing that for some reason, you have to kill a wanted baby. it must be the single hardest thing to say. "I am going to live, because i'm killing my baby - and there is nothing else to do". why make that horror, a political grab? Why deny the woman who has had to make that horrific choice, the right to as many safe procedures as her doctor thinks she needs.




              GOD THIS ISSUE HAS GOTTEN TO ME LATELY. grrr :-)

              hugs all around, thanks for letting me vent, once again.
              • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                Thu, June 14, 2007 - 8:49 AM
                I've been thinking hard about this issue since you posted, Kip. And I've been thinking especially of your point about how any discussion of what is best for the woman almost always disappears in abortion discussions--sometimes unconsciously even among feminists. The Right has so thoroughly set the agenda on discourse around this topic that it seems to drag us cognitively into the pit they've dug, unless we consciously resist it.

                I wanted to tell you about a discussion I had a couple of weeks ago. It doesn't really directly address your points, or this one about politicizing the actual pain of actual lives in ways that only benefit right-wing policy makers...but maybe it does.

                My mother was visiting, along with a friend of hers, a recently uncloseted gay man who still identifies as a fundamentalist, is still a serious churchgoer, and had had two wives, children and now grandchildren rather than living as the gay man he knew he was, because he thought that would be the right thing to do. I'm not sure about his voting preferences. He may have leaned Republican.

                My mother is one of those old school socially liberal Republicans you don't hear much about anymore--the kind that went into social work in the '60s to help struggling families, pushed hard in the '70s for family planning clinics in inner-city neighborhoods, let me read exactly what I wanted to read when I was a kid, taught me to ask hard questions and think clearly about politics and religion, and lived according to a strong ethic of social responsibiltiy. For this type of Republican, social responsibility translates into fiscal conservatisim. And so it was.

                Anyway, my mother's friend Rick brought up the topic of abortion. His brand new grandson was not a particularly wanted baby. Neither of his parents wanted children, the mother had said that she'd rather die or kill the baby than have and raise it, and the father, Rick's son, just wanted to opt out of the whole thing. This is what Rick said to them: 'Whatever you do, whatever decision you make, I will support you. If you decide to have an abortion, please make absolutely sure that this is not just a means of birth control, but an enforcement of your desire never to have children. If you do have the child, my partner and I will help you raise him, and otherwise help in every way we can. If you don't, I will support your decison, which is yours to make."

                That is what this conservative Christian believed was the right thing to do--not despite his faith, mind you, but because of it.

                My mother, old-school Catholic social worker, who had her first jobs in hospitals for unwed mothers, said "I can't understand why people who don't want children don't put them up for adoption. In a situation where a child isn't wanted, this is what I believe is the right thing to do, and I don't understand why so many others don't."

                I said "I think I do. I would feel much guiltier having a baby and giving it away, knowing it was somewhere out in the world and I wasn't raising it, than making sure it never existed at all."

                My SO (Texas liberal who believes in the right to bear arms and rants endlessly about Republicans) didn't say much at the time, but told me later that he agreed with my mother. He supported the right to choose, but disapproved of abortion and thought adoption was a better option.

                My point in telling this long rambling story about a dinner conversation of no concern to anybody is that none of us at that dinner had the same exact view of abortion. More important, none of us had a simplistic view of it. Each of us spoke from our own sense of ethics and from our own experiences. We didn't polarize, take rhetorical positons, or disrespect each other.

                I think our discussion more truly reflects how most Americans feel. I think that this is how most of us would approach a complicated issue if given half a chance. We love and respect each other, we love our families, we want what's best for them, and we know that deciding what's best in the event of unwanted pregnancy is agonizing for everybody, and that the right decision depends on the circumstances.

                What makes me the angriest is that this respectful, careful discussion isn't the one we get to have, because the Right thrives on the polarization and hostility it's been so effective in engineering.
                • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                  Thu, June 14, 2007 - 1:39 PM
                  And what is even more telling in yoru story, is that it is personal to each one. not one of those people in your story said anything about me in Colodrado and my rights. You focused on you (each in turn), on your own morals, feelings, needs views, etc.

                  that is the core of pro-choice. no one is ever saying that we should all think 18 year olds should give up babies, or should have babies, or should kill babies. we are saying, everyone else needs to stay out of it, for that 18 year old woman, and those she chooses to help her.

                  nice discussions. my family would be to blows. ;-)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                    Thu, June 14, 2007 - 3:49 PM
                    >nice discussions. my family would be to blows. ;-)

                    Heh. It was atypical, actually. Rick is a moderating influence.

                    I'm thinking now about my mother's earlier jobs, in those "Homes for Unwed Mothers." Interesting that this once common but relatively little-known institution doesn't actually exist anymore. As a Catholic and a social worker in the early '60s, she was deeply indoctrinated according to the ideology of these places: "when pregnancy outside of marriage occurs, it is always best that the mother give up the baby to a family who can raise it and love it properly. By 'best,' what was meant was 'best for the child.' In fact, that was stated quite clearly. But also, it was best for the woman because she and her family would not have to suffer the stigma.

                    I made the connection just now that this institution and ideology arose precisely because abortions were illegal. What my mother never said and wouldn't was that there must have been enough of a preponderance of back-alley abortions as to cause a social services issue (well that, and all those homeless stigmatized unwed mothers).

                    A book recently came out by Ann Fessler, called _The Children they Gave Away_. She interviewed the women--who had been mostly girls from white, middle-class families-- who gave up their babies for adoption in such homes. What she discovered was that these women were _told_ that they were to give up to babies--it was the very best option for both of them. No other options were discussed--there weren't any. No middle class family would have child born 'out of wedlock' in their house.

                    I am just old enough to remember some of this era, and my mom's rhetoric on the topic. At the time, it seemed naturally the right thing to do. She believed it, and believed in it. Other options were never discussed, because they never existed as possibilities.

                    It's odd how a culture can ideologically blank out the lived reality of thousands of women and girls, render it completely invisible, simply by not discussing it.

                    We may well return to those times again.
            • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

              Sat, June 16, 2007 - 10:48 AM
              "I refuse to play into the semantic game of using the term "pro life".

              Pro life doesn't exist-- because there is no one who is "pro death" stance... "

              Well said Miss Roach. I think the left has repeatedly fallen into these types of logical fallacies in dealing with the right. To think that any woman is "pro death" is absurd. Most women who make a choice to abort are doing so because they believe it is the best choice for their "life" and in many ways for the life of their potential child.

              But whatever, a woman's choice may be, whatever it may be based upon, we do not have the "right" to force her choice to conform to our wishes, desires, morals, etc. In other words, it's none of our business.
              • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                Mon, June 18, 2007 - 1:23 AM
                The answer is:

                Yes - A Feminist "can be" pro-life.
                • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                  Mon, June 18, 2007 - 7:24 AM
                  Karine -
                  I'm curious, how can a feminist justify the fact that pro-life necessarily equates with State Forced Pregnancies, and with the elimination of choices for any individual woman, especially in such situations as we have just seen, by the USSC & US Legislature, where it was decided that teh Courts and teh Legislature know better than the Doctor and the patient, what procedures to use in any particular abortion?

                  how is that Feminist?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                    Wed, June 20, 2007 - 10:29 PM
                    Perhaps its a semantics game, and the question truly is: can a feminist be anti-choice??
                    • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                      Thu, June 21, 2007 - 8:34 AM
                      truly, that is the question.

                      i used the "common" term, casue that's what the article used.

                      i have no issues with any given woman thinking that life is sacred and knowing she would never abort. I have no issues with any given woman saying to her sister, daughter, friend, coworker "I woudln't kill the baby, and if you need help please ask" or "if you want to talk about it from that point of view, i'm here".

                      i have issue with any woman who calls herself "feminst", VOTING for any law that restricts (in any way) a woman's (or girls) right to make decisions about her own health, her own body, and her own pregnancy.
                    • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                      Mon, June 25, 2007 - 4:55 AM
                      exactly what im thinking.
                      using their terms brings us feminists to justify ourselves, insted of arguing.
                      well,
                      CAN a feminist be anti-choice?... of course not!
                      feminism is all about giving the option to choose, not "TO MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE".
                      "right choice" is the anti side, the anti freedome and individuality.
                      "the right TO choose" is what feminism is all about, isnt it??
                      • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                        Mon, June 25, 2007 - 7:15 PM
                        "pro life" is a logical fallacy.

                        and the "pro life" movement is just the cutesy way of saying "anti choice."
                        • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                          Mon, July 2, 2007 - 12:00 PM
                          OK, but, well, ummm, just to be difficult, or to complicate the question again....

                          from the perspective of radical anti-abortionists, pro-choice _is_ pro-death. They're pretty freaking passionate about that. They really don't like the idea of killing babies, even though they're not actually, you know, babies yet, but sort of cellular proto-babies.

                          I seriously think that this very fundamental emotional point isn't one that we do very well with. Pro-choice arguments tend to gloss over this, or rationalize it with 'a fetus isn't a baby, and it isn't really even a fetus, it's just a glob of cells' sorts of arguments. And anybody who's ever looked at an ultrasound knows perfectly well that the little globs are actually pretty well baby-shaped quite early on, and thir little cells are morphing rapidly with all the life force they can muster.

                          To abort is to end that process.

                          Me, I _am_ pro-death. Or more specifically, I don't think that death is all that bad a thing in many circumstances. I'm definitely all for death when somebody is in a vegetative state, or in the advanced stages of a disease from which there is no chance of recovery and _wants_ to die. I'd be perfectly happy if rapists got the death penalty if the death penalty weren't so twistedly politicized in its own way. And I think that the death of a proto baby is an acceptable choice to make when a woman cannot, for whatever her reason, bear and raise a child.

                          As a culture, our inability to accept and deal with death is as pathological as our insistence on regulating women's lives. And we don't often talk about the ways that those social pathologies are linked.
                          • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                            Mon, July 2, 2007 - 1:25 PM
                            "As a culture, our inability to accept and deal with death is as pathological as our insistence on regulating women's lives. And we don't often talk about the ways that those social pathologies are linked."

                            The fact that human life generally begins within a woman's body is pretty mind blowing. Whether a particular woman chooses to carry a child to term, or not, it is something a man absolutely CAN not do. Talk about feeling powerless. And to let every individual woman, rich or poor, black or white, educated or not, make that choice for herself...for that to be a choice a man may influence but not make for her...that is powerlessness.

                            Now, I'm sure that sucks royally for men but does it give them the right to force it on a woman?
                            • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                              Mon, July 2, 2007 - 3:24 PM
                              it is something a man absolutely CAN not do.
                              ==
                              you are missing one other really basic evolutionary problem, too. if a man is to pass along his genes, then he has to insure that the women carries his baby. the only way he reproduces is by her participation.

                              so, if she can just kill at will (as it were), then his genes are not out there being replicated, and he ceases to exist to history. it's also why controlling women's sexuality is critical. if you cant insure that she is ONLY fucking you, then you can't insure her baby is yours.
                              • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                Mon, July 2, 2007 - 3:29 PM
                                "from the perspective of radical anti-abortionists, pro-choice _is_ pro-death. They're pretty freaking passionate about that. They really don't like the idea of killing babies, even though they're not actually, you know, babies yet, but sort of cellular proto-babies. "

                                yeah, the only problem is most of those radical anti-abortionist asshats are also pro-death penalty, and usually support bombings of clinics.

                                there is nothing "pro life" about that stance.
                                • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                  Sat, October 13, 2007 - 7:54 AM
                                  Miss Roach - "yeah, the only problem is most of those radical anti-abortionist asshats are also pro-death penalty, and usually support bombings of clinics."

                                  Entirely. And, on top of it, killing doctors who's main intent and purpose (even when providing safe abortions) is to support and save lives. Morgentaler, now there's a real male feminist (and a very lovely and gentle man) who had a real compassion and respect for women. He just did the right thing because it was clearly to him the right thing - I saw somewhere that there's a documentary coming out about his life which I'm really looking forward to seeing. For those who don't know who he is, he's responsible for spearheading getting abortion legalized in Canada via many means including direct action, and opening clinics where women have access to safe abortions.
                              • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                Mon, July 2, 2007 - 6:36 PM
                                Yep, control, control, control. But, of course, now men can know whether they fathered a child.
                                • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                  Thu, July 12, 2007 - 10:04 PM
                                  Pro-choice does not make one automatically pro-abortion. It simply means that you give someone else the choice of making a decision...whether you agree with their decision or not. Now, of course, there are many folks who identify as pro-choice who are actually pro-abortion. But, what anti-choice folks are about is preventing you from making a choice they don't like...irregardless of what your choice might be.
                                  • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                    Fri, July 13, 2007 - 9:13 AM
                                    i know of no one who is "pro-abortoin". that is a repulisive term, in fact.

                                    Every woman i know who is in teh pro choice camp is hates abortions, that we need abortions, that we don't have better and more routine and cheeper access to things that PREVENT abortion.

                                    but we are in favor of safe and healthy abortions being available when they are needed.
                                    • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                      Fri, July 13, 2007 - 12:31 PM
                                      Perhaps you have heard of misanthropy? It is an idea that some consider as having good merit as a philosophy. For the record, I am not in that camp...although I must confess to having talked to a misanthrope or two in my time.

                                      And for these folks, it was not soon enough that the human race left the blue planet and disappeared from the equation. I don't consider that position entirely rational, certainly not where self-preservation of the species is concerned, but it does have its proponents...way out on the fringe.

                                      I think that pro-choice may also not necessarily be in favor of government support for abortions...although I can't pretend to speak for all pro-choice folks. For instance, one could be a pro-choice libertarian. I think someone mentioned elsewhere in this thread that there was a spectrum of opinions and perspectives on abortion and choice, etc that don't fit neatly into a single view or outlook on the issue and that appears to be true, based both on my own opinions, and the discussion of the issue in this thread.
                                      • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                        Sat, July 21, 2007 - 9:09 PM
                                        after much consideration, i have come to think that while a 'feminist' can be 'pro-life'--that is to say it is possible to call/label oneself anything one desires and such--

                                        i would certainly not trust such a 'feminist'...

                                        after all, camille paglia calls herself a feminist.

                                        lol
                                      • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                        Mon, July 23, 2007 - 2:32 PM
                                        Perhaps you have heard of misanthropy? It is an idea that some consider as having good merit as a philosophy. For the record, I am not in that camp...although I must confess to having talked to a misanthrope or two in my time.
                                        --
                                        That has what to do with pro-choice?
                                        • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                                          Sun, July 29, 2007 - 8:12 PM
                                          >That has what to do with pro-choice?

                                          It was part of the dialog that we were having in this thread. It has to do with your explaining that you didn't know of anyone who was "pro-abortion", supposedly to me, and I was attempting to explain to you that there are some folks who are misanthropes and are strongly pro-abortion, since they are anti-procreation in general.

                                          Are you perhaps viewing the threading in a way that makes the context of the posts in this thread unclear? There are several way to view a thread...you can view it "threaded", "unthreaded", or "newest first" (which I suppose if simply a reverse ordering of "unthreaded")...
                          • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                            Sat, October 13, 2007 - 7:47 AM
                            Shannon - "As a culture, our inability to accept and deal with death is as pathological as our insistence on regulating women's lives. And we don't often talk about the ways that those social pathologies are linked."

                            That's a very good point! (And there are many great points here, this is a great discussion and one of the best I've run across on the topic recently so I hope people don't mind me reviving it to add my two cents :-) There's also a sort of "losing mommy" hysteria around all of this - people get so incredibly freaked out by the idea that women aren't just nurturing mom's and have all kinds of other interests that have nothing to do with men or children that any non-mom (ie, not all about looking after others) or anti-mom kinda thing creates social hysteria. It's the perennial Eve vs Lilith (Madonna/Whore) complex in effect.
  • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

    Wed, August 1, 2007 - 8:32 PM
    no, but a human being with feminist ideology can also be whatever they want. i say love pirate it. if there is something about the ideology you like - adopt it with love; if there is something you don't like, leave it with love. if your consider yourself a feminist but are anti-choice (thank you for the reminders Miss Roach) then be anti-choice and promote feminist issues in other arenas. if you are pro-choice then use it as part of your strategy. one note of caution, most feminists i know are pro-choice.

    my take:
    marriage and family are still under the guise of patriarchy; this implies ownership and the classic power dynamic we all love so much. progeny is also still ruled by patriarchy. i am a radical feminist and i am pro-choice- all they way.

    Miss Roach
    don't hold it against people that are "pro-lifers" and "pro-death penalty" - it is an insult to phallo-rationalism to expect it to be rational (that's why they get the pre-fix, see). :) lol
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

      Sat, October 13, 2007 - 10:58 AM
      eh, sorry, but you absolutely cannot be a feminist if you are anti-choice. You're not even sticking with the muddy waters of the phrase 'pro-life' but going with anti-choice, at which point there is no ambiguity. And if you are anti-choice for women, you are sure as hell not a feminist. You can call yourself a feminist all you want, but it won't be true.
      • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

        Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:07 AM
        Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that there might be an individual situation where someone choses - for themselves but not for others - to not have an abortion because of a religious belief. Of course, ultimately they'd still be pro-choice if they weren't trying to choose for others! (Let's face it, all "pro-life" people are religious from what I can tell - it's why they indulge in such logical fallacies as considering themselves "pro-life" when they actually support the death penalty and try to kill doctors.)
  • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

    Sat, October 13, 2007 - 7:35 AM
    Kip - What a great and complex question! I'm going to answer from my perspective before reading through the other responses so please don't hold it against me if I'm repeating here.

    I think women's liberation is integrally intertwined with the right to do what we will with our own bodies (though this is a philosophical issue that extends well beyond feminism). It's not a coincidence that the wave of women's liberation in the 70s is integrally tied to both the availability of reliable birth control and access to abortions. Now, my mom was a doctor who fought to legalize abortion in the 70s so I'm clearly biased here. Of course, the right to abortion isn't the ultimate solution. The ultimate solution would be *real* choice that starts with effective education vis a vis birth control and safe sex - and easy and cheap access to birth control. To me, being pro-choice ultimately means that women who become pregnant have the option to choose whether to terminate a pregnancy *or* continue with guaranteed social/financial support or to put their child up for adoption. I do believe one can be a feminist and decide for oneself that abortion is not a choice for oneself - so in that sense a feminist could be pro-life. However, to try to impose this choice (or lack of choice) upon other women is integrally anti-feminist since it's about controlling what other women do with their body and depriving them of choice about their own future.
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    Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

    Sat, October 13, 2007 - 10:38 AM
    <<So teh question is quite simple. do you think, as feminists, that a postion can exist that is "pro-life" and feminist at teh same time?>>

    Just seeing this topic for the first time.

    The answer, no. It is not possible to be a feminist and pro-life simultaneously. Choice is fundamental to feminism and if you are at all against a woman's freedom of choice you are precluded from being feminist, period, ESPECIALLY when the issue is a woman's bodily integrity. There's no room for compromise.
    • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

      Sat, October 13, 2007 - 10:52 AM
      Nimbrethil - "Choice is fundamental to feminism and if you are at all against a woman's freedom of choice you are precluded from being feminist, period, ESPECIALLY when the issue is a woman's bodily integrity. There's no room for compromise."

      You'll get total agreement from me on this. Though I can see a situation (no matter how unlikely) where a woman could both support other women's right to choose *and* hold a personal belief that she herself shouldn't have an abortion because it's killing a life. Of course, I've never run into this and this imaginary woman would also clearly be pro-choice! Clearly the "feminist pro-life" organizations are just playing semantics and trying not to look like a bunch of ancient old god bothers past any point where this debate is relevant to them as individuals.
      • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

        Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:10 AM
        Of course, even the term "pro-life" is really just trying to make them sound positive rather than what they really are which is "anti-abortion"...as has been very astutely pointed out by a number of women here. I think the points brought up about allowing the debate to get framed by the rhetoric of anti-abortionists and christian fundamentalists were really astute and something to watch out for. I think next time someone says "pro-life" around me, I'll just say "oh, you mean anti-abortionists?" :-)
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        Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

        Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:14 AM
        Well, the stance of 'personally pro-life, politically pro-choice' IS being pro-choice. The term 'pro-life' for better or worse, is a politicized term that refers to being against abortion for other women beside yourself.

        I've noticed a few things generally true about women who are pro-choice and those who are pro-life: women who are genuinely pro-choice, even if they would choose not to abort for themselves, don't spend time rationalizing their position in order to make it more palatable to themselves and their social circle.

        Then there's women who claim to be pro-choice but spend an AWFUL LOT of time hedging. You'll see it with comments like "Oh, I'm pro-choice for other women but I would NEVER have an abortion MYSELF," in which they attempt to sound pro-choice but automatically slap a moralizing judgment onto abortion. Talk to these women long enough about abortion and they'll eventually make it clear that their pro-choice claim is quite limited. These are the women who'll soon enough make it clear that they do place more weight on the life of a ZEF (zygote-embryo-fetus) and want limitations placed on abortion--no late term, make sure it isn't used as "birth control," ensure that the father is allowed to have a say. These are the woman who will claim to be pro-choice but offer up anecdotal examples of women they know who selfishly use abortion as birth control.

        You're either pro-choice...or you're not. Pro-choice does not and never has meant pro-abortion, despite what the anti-choice crowd wants to believe. It means CHOICE. To be a feminist means to be opposed equally to forced abortion as to forced pregnancy. Period. If you are pro-choice, you are pro-choice FOR YOURSELF as well as other women. Being pro-choice leaves open the option to CHOOSE to give birth. It is outright stupid to think that if a woman is pro-choice, that means she would definitely choose abortion for herself, because it only means that she is open to either prospect and will choose for herself based on her own situation.

        It's not that complicated.
        • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

          Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:25 AM
          Nimb - "Talk to these women long enough about abortion and they'll eventually make it clear that their pro-choice claim is quite limited."

          I don't think I know any anti-choice women so I can't speak from personal experience here. I'd tend to agree with you, and one thing that's important to talk about is that there have to be safe and accessible clinics for abortion to be a viable choice so anyone who says they're "pro-choice" but doesn't also support access to safe and free/affordable abortion isn't really pro-choice either. There's no choice possible if there's no access to abortion *or* birth control. Of course, I believe that birth control should be free. I think it's cruel to make women living in poverty have to make the choice between eating and risking pregnancy - particularly since sex is one form of entertainment that doesn't cost anything (it's the consequences or prevention of consequences that are costly).
          • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

            Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:37 AM
            You know, and this may sound radical and rude to some, my belief is that even if the foetus *is* sentient within the first trimester that I still have the choice about whether I want to carry it to term in my body and be responsible for bringing another life into the world. Once the pro-lifers of this world actually start valuing the life that does exist - and makes efforts for all of us on the planet to have the opportunity of a good life (I mean that in an emotional and psychological sense not a material one) - then they have the right to start talking about unborn lives!
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              Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

              Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:54 AM
              That's the whole thing. Whether or not a ZEF is sentient or a person or whatever, is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion because what is at issue is the WOMAN. It isn't about when life begins, it is about whether or not an adult woman (or young girl) has the right to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy.
              • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:03 PM
                That's my take on it too - the right to make choices about our own body and life. Let's not forgot that no matter what fashionable postmodern theory is currently attached to feminism in academic circles that feminism is rooted in the fight for women to have the right to decide their own destiny and to own their bodies - this is the common thread that runs through the first victory when women attained the right to vote through rape and marriage laws and why they needed to be changed so that women aren't legally considered someone else's property and into the debates around abortion and access to birth control and other issues related to the choices we now have vis a vis our bodies because of technological and medical advances.
                • Re: Can a feminst be "pro-life"

                  Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:06 PM
                  And I'm not trying to dismiss the value of the ivory tower - all rooms with a view are good things and it's a wonderful thing that more women have this luxury. It's just that if we forget to look at the real lives of women and what is most practically needed, then I'd argue we've drifted far from any true form of feminism in the sense of liberating and fighting for women's rights.

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