Advertisement
hi all. as i sit here pouring over my own self-indulgent dissertation materials, i can't help but wonder where you all imagine major shifts in feminist philosophy occuring. for me, the area of non-cog ways of knowing is up-and-coming, but what do your studies or thoughts tell you about what's next? if it helps: as butler's notion of performativity did to gender studies, so ______ will do to _______?
posted by:
|
Boston
|
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Tue, July 10, 2007 - 2:08 PMI haven't responded to this question, though it's interesting, because those blanks to fill in are far too much like Mad Libs, and I keep wanting to fill in goofy things.
It's hard to tell what direction feminism will go in next I think because it's so hard to tell where its' going now. I found most academic gender theories to be largely insufficient in the long term. For some reason, the old , largely now dismissed because of their essentialism Frenchies CIxous and Irigaray and Kristeva remain favorites of mine.
Also, you're probably closer to the pulse of current thought than I currently am. What direction do you see things going in from where you sit? What ideas make you tingly and a little breathless because they open up worlds for you and you can't find the limitations of them yet?
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Tue, September 4, 2007 - 6:51 PMhere is a far out idea. feminism dies. it serves its corrective purpose, we all get it, and can move on in appreciation of all we learned. feminism will be outdated. i disagree with those who say it already is. i do, however, look forward to the day the feminism died. i can't help it, i am a dreamer. -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 5, 2007 - 11:54 AMI don't think feminism will "die out", i just think that after our current goals of social, political, economic, and "power" (not sure of that adjective) equality come to pass (around the world), feminism will shift directions. It will become less important, and more a way to support women's intersts and women's issues that will remain always somewhat (to greatly) different from men's. but it won't be a driving force, as much as a curiousity.
-
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Thu, September 20, 2007 - 8:16 AMhmmmm, i agree with the bit about 'non cognitive knowing'........ although, i think that is largely already in effect. at least in my studies......
a lot of validating alternative narratives........ story telling, myth............ feminism is no longer 'just' about women, it is about all dualities, dichotomies, the fact that the dominant ideology requires a binary logic to exist... be it 'patriarchal', 'euro-centric', 'andro-centric' etc.
eco-feminism is the next wave i'd guess............ along with deconstruction, relative reality, contextual truth and post-modernism comes the inevitable 'why is the human perspective more privileged.........?' so ultimately 'feminism' (which isn't really one definable, classifiable thing) becomes about fluidity, accommodation, reception, understanding......... which if you've ever read the 'I-ching', seems perfectly appropriate. however, i think at that point it becomes kind of misleading to call it 'feminism' ..... just because most people are simple-minded, or, don't care to think about things in more complex ways, and can't seem to see past the crude 1st stages of the feminist philosophies. so........ for the good of all concerned, perhaps it would be best if feminism, did not die, but "doth suffer a sea change, into something rich and strange".......
i also agree it would be a better world if feminism was not needed, but i think that would be a world where feminist thinking was assimilated into the mainstream, and so no longer a philosophy constructed out of opposition to that stream.... which is not to say consciousness of it should disappear......... we all know it is the invisible clench of 'patriarchy' that has made it so deadly..... we should always know 'Why' we do things, if we possibly can.
but feminism should become a relic of history, and present day feminism should mutate into something more palatable, and by that i mean accessible, to the main-stay of our modern culture.
that's what i think.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sat, September 22, 2007 - 6:32 AMKip - For me, the essence of feminism is sisterhood. Strip away the theory, and that's what's at the heart of feminism. Unpeel the many, many layers that women of each generation going back into time have added and polished and worked for and celebrated, the many layers of women's culture, and at the heart is always sisterhood. Sometimes, when feminism gets bound (and even gagged) by theory, this can been forgotten in practice. I must say, as much as I enjoy theory and feel it has an important place in feminism, for me authentic feminism is in the practice not the words. If one says one is a feminist but then doesn't act within the spirit of sisterhood, to me feminism is effectively dead in that moment. Of course, all it takes to revive sisterhood is the act of being a sister :-) -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sat, September 22, 2007 - 8:48 PMhow do you reconcile this post with your post in the evolutionary psych tribe, where you proclaimed that you were not a feminist?
evolutionarypsychology.tribe.net/t...37
are you a feminist or not? -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sun, September 23, 2007 - 7:37 AMblue-j - I've left the tribes you moderate and deleted you from my friends list. I'll say this once more here, and that's it. I'm done with trying to talk to you any further. You've now stepped over into the realm of abusive behavior and I'll ask you to please desist and to respect this request not to approach me again in this manner. I'd also ask you to consider and think a bit more deeply about what you're doing here by being aggressive and hostile if you truly believe I'm re-enacting and re-experiencing a childhood abuse drama (and if it's appropriate to act in this way in a feminist tribe).
To this tribe - I'm happy to answer any questions women (and non-hostile men) in here have about who I am, past and present activism and engagement vis a vis feminist and Queer rights, and what I believe vis a vis feminism if anyone is curious. I joined this tribe because I'm currently working on a feminist festival (new media and networked practices) and have been having some interesting discussions with the women I'm working with and wanted to explore some of these ideas further and get a feel for what women in this tribe think and feel. (I'm not trying to devalue male contributions and I truly appreciate and respect male feminists who aren't merely appropriating feminism for their own ends. That said, my bias is towards women's perspectives, experiences and personal desires when discussing or applying feminism, *even* if they're radically different than my own.) -
-
Unsu...
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sun, September 23, 2007 - 8:41 AMBlue-J will no sooner jump in with an explanation as to why someone can possibly have an opinion that differs from his own. His take on me last time was that I'm an oversensitive white middle-class woman with a long history of childhood abuse and rape when I showed interest in the SCUM Manifesto (take a look at the thread if you'd like to be amused for a few minutes).
-
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sun, September 23, 2007 - 2:35 PMNA - Call me old school but isn't attempting to devalue and disempower a woman and her perspective in a feminist forum *because* she was abused as a child and raped akin to *being* the poison in the well? -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sun, September 23, 2007 - 9:51 PMif it were in fact the case, fifi, you would be correct according to me as well.
-
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sun, September 23, 2007 - 9:50 PMi also invite others to reread the thread to see if NA's characterization is accurate. it's not.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 9:24 AM"I'm an oversensitive white middle-class woman with a long history of childhood abuse and rape when I showed interest in the SCUM Manifesto"
NA, please show the evidence that i said this about you, because it doesn't match my reading. i said a simple thing: that the SCUM manifesto, like much of feminism in the 70s, did not sufficiently acknowledge oppression along the lines of race, class, etc. and that it is typical that blind spots like this follow privilege. that is to say, black men might overemphasize race in their analysis and underacknowledge gender, white women might emphasize gender over race, etc. when you uncritically announced your support of the manifesto i suggested the possibility that this might indicate such a pattern, but i never said it was true.
as for your long history of childhood abuse and rape... i really have no idea what you're talking about. please point me to where i said this about you, and i'll gladly acknowledge my error and apologize profusely. -
-
Unsu...
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 10:25 AMThere is heavy suggestion throughout the SCUM thread that my opinion is flawed because I must be X, Y and Z. To paraphrase one of blue-j's sentences: "I'm so sorry you've had such terrible experiences with men, and that you feel so separate from them" and also "Are you white and middle-class by any chance?". It's all there.
Also, talking about Solanas' experiences of child abuse from her father, and then somehow relating that I must have had similarly traumatic experiences to even like her piece of writing, implying this bias he believes I have makes my opinion any less important, is actually quite belittling. This way of trying to disregard a woman's views by judgment is a tactic used a lot by men who do not like feminists. What is he then, and what is he doing in this group? -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 12:10 PMNA - After reading that thread, I'd agree with your estimation of what went on. One can read and understand the SCUM manifesto - even enjoy it for it's twist of the knife out of the female body and into the male - without endorsing it. Any man who doesn't actually listen to women- that not only includes women who don't agree with him or tell him he's mistaken but *particularly* includes these women if the man wants to call himself a "feminist" in my opinion - is most definitely part of the problem not the solution. I could give two shits (no, I couldn't even give one actually) if some guy has read feminist theory, what I care about is if they are loving and supportive of women and listen to and integrate our concerns. It's that simple really. Interestingly enough, most of the men I know who do this are very comfortable in their masculinity and see it as being more their job to deal with other guys who are stupid towards women than to be one of the girls. Now *that* is the kind of man on man educating and boundary setting is helpful to women and that truly helps the us in a practical way.
NA, your post has sparked some thoughts for me vis a vis feminism, angry women and women's anger, and attempts to silence or vilify it's expression because men or society in general find it upsetting. You know, the "mommies have to be all soft and nurturing" and "women must be receptive" thing. Apparently it's too upsetting when women are angry so we just have to be nice and inclusive and nurturing and affirming and positive to men and so on - even when we're discussing concerns specific to women or just our own experiences. -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 3:43 PMi haven't disregarded any woman's anger. i actually stated support for both NA and solanas' anger. neither of you are actually relating to me as an actual person, bothering to see where i'm really at, or carefully reading my posts.
the manifesto isn't just an expression of anger either. it's a political manifesto purporting to speak mainly on male motivation! its theses are almost entirely about men, and not just about her experience with men, but with how men really are as a group. i'll see it once again: as an expression of anger and personal pain, it is a passionate and well-written piece; as a political manifesto about male psychology, it is shallow and poor. and as a political manifesto connecting with other oppressions, it sucks. -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 3:54 PMblue-j
>as an expression of anger and personal pain, it is a passionate and well-written piece; as a political manifesto about male psychology, it is shallow and poor. and as a political manifesto connecting with other oppressions, it sucks.<
if you inserted an "i think" prior to that statement, it would greatly reduce the inflametory nature, and facilitate understanding of your points.
there is a difference between having an opinion (to which everyone is entitled) and making objective claims about reality and value (to which anybody's entitlement is debatable).
i think you are stating your opinion, but it sounds as though you are making an objective evaluation...
anyway, that might help.
just my thoughts.
-
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 4:09 PMoops, sorry everyone, of course everything i say is just my opinion! and that can certainly change with time too. thanks for the tip, cloe, i'll try to be less "objective" sounding in the future. -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 4:27 PM;)
-
-
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 5:54 AMNo *still* means no. -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 10:44 AMwhich "no" are you referring to? i can't follow the thread apparently, my apologies.
-
-
-
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 3:37 PMi've explicitly explained why i asked about your race and class background numerous times, and you actually have failed to respond to the concept. the question is, would a woman of color be likely to post an uncritical review of the manifesto? i would guess not, but everyone's an individual, and there could certainly be someone who would. i'm not boxing anyone in.
the manifesto has a seriously flawed bias toward a white woman's experiences, going so far as to blame all race and class divisions on men. this is a complete lack of acknowledgment of other dimensions of oppressions. whatever your background, the fact that you have not acknowledged this bias and feel vitriolic violation when this is pointed out to you tells me you are simply not showing sensitivity to oppressions not based on gender.
this is not a tactic to disregard your opinion. this is an engagement on an intellectual level about important topics, and i am asking and making suggestions to hear your response, not to presume i know where you're coming from.
and please, your paraphrases are terribly inaccurate. please only provide direct quotes or links if you continue to reference my posts. -
-
Unsu...
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 9:51 AMThe manifesto is biased towards a white woman's perspective, because yes, it was written by a white woman. A person can't accurately talk from a perspective that is not theirs, and shouldn't try to. But the way you have phrased this question seems as though you're suggesting because it's not written from a working class coloured perspective, it makes it less 'true'. I think to recognise the characters and situations in the manifesto you do not need to have an identical background to hers. I would not say that I do.
I think "blame" is the wrong word. I see it as an explanation, from her perspective, how a psychopathic white man in power operates. It is correct that it would look different written by a black woman. She would be from a different socio-economic group, will have had different experiences with "the man" than Solanas, although not always additional ones. It doesn't always quite work that way. I think when we mix in race issues with gender issues it gets extremely sticky. This is why I've been hesitant to address this. It can turn into a competition of 'more oppressed than thou', and in this case does distract massively from discussing the main content of the manifesto. Perhaps creating a separate thread concerning this would be good idea. -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 10:04 AMby your same logic, one should expect and accept a male bias in writings by men. do you? i'm not saying that we should speak for other people, but that when we provide an analysis of power, we include relationships where we are part of the problem, not just relationships where we are being wronged. i feel that to blame men for all racial and class oppression as solanas does -- note that she does not ignore the issue -- is a convenience to keep her and other white women's hands clean. the relationships between race, gender, class, ability, age, culture, nationality, species, etc. are complex obviously and we can't do justice to all of them all of the time, and i don't mind a focus on any dimension, but that doesn't mean we should paint any one vector of oppression as the only one that's real. some feminist women of color who talk a lot about this whom i've read include audre lorde, patricia hill collins, and bell hooks. i don't intend this as a "divide women and conquer" but as an important inclusion of all kinds of harm in our visions for creating a better world.
"how a psychopathic white man in power operates"
i think she actually describes some aspects of this psychology well. let's face it, it's a long, detailed document, and some of it she gets right, some wrong, some is dated, some not, etc.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 10:05 AM"I think when we mix in race issues with gender issues it gets extremely sticky. This is why I've been hesitant to address this."
perhaps it is sticky in reality, and that's why it's hard to address.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 8:32 AMNA - I thought you may be interested to know that Valerie Solanas didn't grow up in some comfortable, snug middle class environment (since you've been discussing context). She first lived in Jersey with her parents (her father was a bartender) in a blue collar, ethnically diverse neighborhood. Then with her grandparents when her parents divorced (not sure of where or how they lived) and then with her mother in Washington, DC (not sure of the socio-economic situation here either). It's also relevant to remember that she was a performer as well as a writer, and herself said that the SCUM manifesto wasn't meant to be taken literally or acted upon. Seems to me that the impetus for shooting Warhol wasn't that he was a man but that he stole/lost her script (between the two of them there was enough paranoia and social anxiety that the outcome isn't really that unexpected).
I find it interesting that women's anger, and even verbal expressions of female anger, are *still* taboo...particularly in the eyes of men when it's directed towards men. Particularly when one considers that anger is a healthy and natural response to being abused, and part of the process of healing. Seems to me that reviling of angry women is, once again, an attempt to mold/control women to male ends (being nice, soft and pretty and looking after them). Sometimes anger is not only justified but necessary. Which is not a defense of Solanis' work (which I tend to see as a piece of performative text and in the context of feminist and Queer performance art) but rather an understanding of why and how she was so angry, and the value of the work within the context it was written. That we're still talking about it today, indicates just how powerful a work it was *shrug* -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 9:09 AM"I thought you may be interested to know that Valerie Solanas didn't grow up in some comfortable, snug middle class environmen"
you'd be interested to know that her background was mentioned at some length in the other thread you apparently didn't read with any eye for detail.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 9:12 AM"I find it interesting that women's anger, and even verbal expressions of female anger, are *still* taboo"
it's not a personal expression of anger on the surface. it's a political manifesto detailing the alleged truths of male motivation and psychology. it's apparent you haven't read the posts in the other thread, so insofar as you are trying to refer to my reactions, i advise you to show more care. i find it troubling that you've shown such a sure reading of my position earlier, and now prove not to have read the thread with much attention at all.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 9:28 AMmarilyn frye's essay "a note on anger" in her book "the politics of reality" is an excellent discussion of women's anger. i recommend it!
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 9:34 AMNA - Should we start a new thread if you're into discussing these ideas with each other? I'm starting to see why there aren't that many women active in this tribe. -
-
Unsu...
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 9:37 AMThat sounds like a good idea.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 12:16 PM"I'm starting to see why there aren't that many women active in this tribe."
Yes, it's to the point now where I don't even enjoy reading the posts in this tribe anymore and I know a couple of women (one of them a brilliant, witty academic who can bring ivory tower theory convincingly down to earth) who've left the group completely. I've been pondering that move myself lately but recent thoughtful posts by you and lori have forestalled that decision.
Please keep posting! -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 4:10 PMi'm fine with stepping back from this tribe and keeping quiet, unless my points are explicitly remarked upon, at which point i reserve the right to represent myself. i do feel i have been misrepresented with some consistency and am not happy with how i've been related to by some of you, but perhaps upon reflection i will learn more about how i contributed to the mistrust among us and rectify it. for any mistakes i've made, i apologize. i sincerely tried to engage with both self-respect and respect for others.
i'm happy to see this tribe finally picking up some energy! i'm happy to sit back and learn from future conversations among everyone.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 7:18 AMHi Marie Therese, I will keep posting and I hope you'll join in when you see something that piques your interest. Perhaps we can reclaim this virtual space as a place where women can discuss our experiences of being a woman and the philosophies - personal and academic - that come from our experiences and observations. It's so sad that women have been alienated from this tribe and have left, the loss of such splendid and brilliant women is even more regrettable. Though, totally understandable in the face of the kind of patriarchal competitive conversational paradigm that is evident here from going back over recent threads, alongside the sense of male entitlement on display (and the snark directed towards women who question that entitlement).
I also greatly enjoy lori's posts both here and elsewhere. I was happy to see her in this tribe, along with other ladies I respect :-) -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Fri, September 28, 2007 - 12:24 PMThanks Marie Terese and Fifi!! I'm glad to see more activity here as well.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sun, September 23, 2007 - 9:54 PMi can't see how my question was hostile. in a recent discussion you proclaimed loudly that you were not a feminist and were a humanist, and i in turn tried to communicate that feminism was a gender-centered form of humanism to me. you found my approach disagreeable. so here in a feminist forum i found you identifying with feminism comfortably, and asked how you reconcile these positions. -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 9:09 AM>are you a feminist or not?<
i really think the binary nature of that question contradicts the essence of *what i understand to be* feminism.
feminism is no ONE thing, owned and defined by some central authority.
feminism is a way of approaching the world.... perhaps one that values human relationships over laws or principles.
as to the question of 'being' a feminist... sometimes i portray myself as a feminist, sometimes not.
that is consistent with my understanding of feminism, that it is not a static state of being, it is not a political party to which one belongs ("are you know, or have you ever been, a member of the communist party?") it is just a commitment to looking critically at and challenging dominant and oppressive ideologies. because the 'top' is constantly changing form, the 'resistance' must also constantly change.
that kind of perspective where people have to be locked into these binary oppositional categories, that is a perspective congruent with the dominant 'patriarchal' ideological perspective. you're good or bad. you're right or wrong. black or white.
but it isn't like that. 'feminism' (i think) is about seeing the grey..
there is this neat article about the moral development of boys and girls by Grimshaw... look it up if you're curious.
ahh. anyway, that's just what i think. -
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 9:17 AMthanks cloe, i agree with you for sure. i was lead to ask the question that way because of fifi's clear binary statement that she was not a feminist, but i would've handled it more gently and with more finesse had we not gotten into some murky waters in the other tribe, wherein i was being argued with for calling myself a feminist instead of a humanist. but certainly my morality and politics cannot be reduced down to simple binary terms, and hope others are the same in that regard.
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 9:48 AMChloé - This is a beautiful explanation, and accurate for me too in *my* understanding. For me, feminism is a very practical thing that has to do with empowering women - be that via basic things such as equal rights and equal pay or larger issues like creating social structures that support and reflect the diversity of women's needs. It's not academic theory, it's practical everyday life and living. I'm all for men identifying as feminists and playing a supportive role in women's groups and actively educating their fellow men *if* it's not merely a matter of appropriating feminism for male ends. It gets pretty problematic for me when men either assume that they can or should "educate" women who don't conform to their theory of Feminism (the capital "F" should be noted), or they think their understanding of theory trumps actual female experiences. Feminism just isn't about men's needs in my books - not in the slightest. (It's not anti-men's needs either since it's just not about men's needs in the first place.) And if a man can't deal with that, well hell, that's why feminism exists in the first place! ;-) -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Mon, September 24, 2007 - 10:05 AMfair enough, fifi!
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Unsu...
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Thu, September 20, 2007 - 12:49 PMI don't think feminism will ever die. If anything, I am uncomfortable with the concept because it's more in line with anti-feminist thinking. I'd love to see the day when feminism is no longer necessary, but it's misogynists who want feminism to die--or who think feminism is already dead.
-
-
Re: where are our feminist philosophies headed next?
Sat, September 22, 2007 - 6:21 AMredbricolage - What do you mean by "the area of non-cog ways of knowing is up-and-coming"?
