Women and Science

topic posted Mon, July 9, 2007 - 1:11 PM by  Kip
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posted on another thread by Lori
"Women in math and science is a very complex topic, worthy of another thread (I am one by the way). "

So 1) how do we actively change this perception
and perhaps more importantly

how do we get our daughters to want and love science and math. I do not at all buy into the idea that this is a biological thing. Cultural, sure. women are less good at math and science (maybe) because of culture. but i've seen nothing that really studies why it would be a biological cause.

so how do we engage our girls into science so they have that option available, when they are ready to start looking at "what do i want to be" both in the abstract (as 5 or 6 year olds), and the concrete "shit, i have to declare my major this year".
posted by:
Kip
offline Kip
Denver
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  • Re: Women and Science

    Mon, July 9, 2007 - 1:35 PM
    It is really is a tough issue. Does anyone still believe there is a biological basis for gender difference in the sciences? I thought it was pretty well established that the differences were due to culture.

    From what I'm seeing and what I've heard, girls are excelling in math and sciences in the primary grades and a gap doesn't appear until adolescence. And even then, the gap is rapidly narrowing. Is this accurate or have I been the victim of "American happy thought"?
    • Re: Women and Science

      Mon, July 9, 2007 - 2:09 PM
      "American happy thought".

      we just had a PhD scientist on our local radio, discussing science & education. he's on the Colorado board of Ed (for k-12) even though he is a research scientists and professor at CU. Can't remember his name, but he's a physicist.

      he says this is one of the most obvious things that needs to be address, other than just the generic "lack of funding" issues all of education --but significantly science - experiences.

      he says that while educators and education models are far to happy to accept that *some* girls excel in science and math, and that those who do often excel far beyond their male contemporaries - they still accept the stereotype that "most" girls are not good at science and math.
      • Re: Women and Science

        Mon, July 9, 2007 - 8:52 PM
        It's definitely not genetic. I wanted to be a doctor all my life. I loved my science classes, and did well--until I hit a couple of math teachers.

        One of them, an old-school nun, said that she liked boys better than girls, and taught accordingly.

        I worked for a year in a tech company. I have my name on a patent as a co-inventor of a search engine. It was, unsurprisingly, an overwhelmingly male environment (except for my team, whose job was to know about pop culture). I've never worked in such a sexist environment in my life. And again, it was that virulent, sneaky, we're liberal white guys who want to change the world. We're not being sexist, because we're not sexist people sort of stuff that's really, really effective.

        I'd rather have an old-fashioned fanny-patting chauvinist any day.
        • Re: Women and Science

          Tue, July 10, 2007 - 12:07 PM
          Sexism in the sciences is still alive and well. I experienced some pretty ugly discrimination when I first began my PhD but I was lucky. My department had several women professors and was more gender friendly than many other departments.
          • Re: Women and Science

            Tue, July 10, 2007 - 12:11 PM
            What do you work at, lori? Why did you choose that profession, and what keeps you in it?
            • Re: Women and Science

              Tue, July 10, 2007 - 1:01 PM
              I was working on a PhD in Plant Sciences. The working title of my research was "Some Population Genetic Consequences Of Human Interaction on the Evolution of Domesticated Species". (You can see I needed a better title. ;-) I chose it because I was obsessed with why human beings would destroy their own ecosystem and I wanted to find a way to understand it logically, scientifically rather than conjecture. I love math, I wanted something I could measure <big grin> to explain why we seem hell-bent on self-destruction.

              And well, I love the research, I love thinking about things <sigh>. Right now, nothing is keeping me in it. I hate the competitive crap, I hate watching scientists I respect distracted from their work because they have to play the game and now more than ever they have to scramble for funding. I'm kind of having an early mid-life crisis (seriously, I'm writing a novel -- I'm such a cliche). What I miss is the actual science.
              • Re: Women and Science

                Tue, July 10, 2007 - 2:03 PM
                >What I miss is the actual science.

                Oh well feh! I'm sorry.

                But, but...dissertations are hard and soul-sucking at the best of times, but it's clear that you love this stuff. Find a way to work through the BS and just feed your passion somehow?

                Living for one's passion generally has some pretty major costs. But in the end, it sustains me far more deeply than all the other stuff.

                If it's any consolation, I work in a highly female/feminist environment that's maddening in its own way. All the multiple moms breast feeding during faculty meetings is kind of charming--screeching tots in the next cubicle are skull-pounding. And making major decisions by consensus just makes me want to off people after about an hour of soul-searching discussion.
      • Re: Women and Science

        Tue, July 10, 2007 - 1:12 AM
        one question that feminist philosophers of science have been asking for decades is whether the scientific enterprise itself isn't masculine to begin with. the idea of objectifying external stimuli, taking only public phenomena seriously, viewing emotional subjective data as unimportant, hiding personal situatedness... are these dimensions of science themselves that alienate many women?
        • Re: Women and Science

          Tue, July 10, 2007 - 8:17 AM
          science also alienates many deeply held moral and emotional patterns in men, a la organized religion.

          also, what is the intellectual goal of a line of inquiry like this? to modify science so that it's more amenable to a particular definition of feminity? frankly, while science is a cultural object and biases and hegemonies certainly do get encoded in it, in a fundamental way it is shaped by it's function, it's essence is a process by which it can be changed to become more functional. moreover, it's functionality rests entirely on the functional integrity of every incremental change and making a change based upon culturally specific politics would undermine the whole structure.



          "one question that feminist philosophers of science have been asking for decades is whether the scientific enterprise itself isn't masculine to begin with. the idea of objectifying external stimuli, taking only public phenomena seriously, viewing emotional subjective data as unimportant, hiding personal situatedness... are these dimensions of science themselves that alienate many women? "
          • Re: Women and Science

            Tue, July 10, 2007 - 8:39 AM
            You don't change science. Science as an enterprise is mostly pure, since like math, logic, or other studies it derives its existance from it's definition. there is no "happy science" or "sad science" nor "good science (in a moral sense, not in a tehcinal sense) or "bad science".


            but you can change society.
            society encourages boys to tear bugs apart. this is not only destructive fun, it's is engaging the 'how do things work" mode in the mind. girls are encouraged to simply play.

            society encourages boys to change thier own tires - again learning how it's done, how gears work, how a spinning point at the center appears to go faster than something on the outside, though each are attached. etc.

            Girls are encouraged to have dad change their tire for them.

            it's not blatant, the way we shape young minds, it's very subtle. and i don't know how you change it.
        • Re: Women and Science

          Tue, July 10, 2007 - 8:34 AM
          one question that feminist philosophers of science have been asking for decades is whether the scientific enterprise itself isn't masculine to begin with. the idea of objectifying external stimuli, taking only public phenomena seriously, viewing emotional subjective data as unimportant, hiding personal situatedness... are these dimensions of science themselves that alienate many women?
          ==
          only if you buy into the stereotype that women are bound to teh "emotive", and are not into objectification of data. I think all this does is recapitulate women into male's frames. "this is how we see you, but in being supportive we are helping you address the world from within that frame".

          we do this to native Americans (and i'm sure many others) as well, when we talk about how thier cultures were peaceful, didn't own property and all lived in lovely harmony without the need for government.

          and yes, Blue, culturally we have trained women to think they must be more emotional focused, more lyrical focused, more oriented toward things of beauty than abstraction, logic, or liner categories. but that's not a biological assertion.
          • Re: Women and Science

            Tue, July 10, 2007 - 11:33 AM
            what does the scientific research tell us about the biological foundations of cognitive approaches related to the current practice of science? i know there must be some serious research on the topic.

            i recall this somewhat recent debate over the issue between spelke and pinker at Harvard during the controversy surrounding the President's remarks about women and science:

            www.edge.org/3rd_culture...5_index.html
            • Re: Women and Science

              Tue, July 10, 2007 - 11:51 AM
              there is serious research, but the problem is that it is almost 100% impossible to distinguish biological from cultural and societal, when you are dealing with kids raised to be "one way" or "another".

              That is, there is evidence that (and this is made up, here, cause i don't know the real evidence) women's right lobe is bigger than her left lobe. but, th eproblem is we don't konw if that is 1) because she is encouraged to talk more, or 2) if she is encouraged to talk more because she is natural at it.

              it's a very serious scientific delema. does the chicken come first, or the egg?
            • Re: Women and Science

              Tue, July 10, 2007 - 11:52 AM
              I think that it's easy enough to engage girls in science. Girls are as intellectually curious as boys are.

              The entire state of science education is in pretty much of a shambles nationwide though, which doesn't help. Science itself is not a very high priority under the current administration, for anybody.

              I think that what would encourage more women to _stay_ in science is the same sort of workplace improvements that are necessary in any other traditionally male-dominated profession.
              • Re: Women and Science

                Tue, July 10, 2007 - 12:50 PM
                "The entire state of science education is in pretty much of a shambles nationwide though, which doesn't help. Science itself is not a very high priority under the current administration, for anybody.

                I think that what would encourage more women to _stay_ in science is the same sort of workplace improvements that are necessary in any other traditionally male-dominated profession."


                The attitude towards intelligence, education and science in this country is really scary right now. You're either a sell-out, a liar or a whipping boy. Does anyone respect scientists anymore? Do we respect ourselves? We're being squeezed into the same trap everyone else is in. Sell your scientific soul for a bowl of pottage, and good luck getting the pottage.

                I don't know what would encourage women to stay. I'm currently on the lam from my Phd program and I probably won't go back. It's true that women are still marginalized and I think I did let it get to me (you know like they were doing me a big favor by letting me be there). I can't stand the social and political climate of the whole thing but I really miss the science, I miss doing research a lot.
        • Re: Women and Science

          Tue, July 10, 2007 - 12:38 PM
          "one question that feminist philosophers of science have been asking for decades is whether the scientific enterprise itself isn't masculine to begin with. the idea of objectifying external stimuli, taking only public phenomena seriously, viewing emotional subjective data as unimportant, hiding personal situatedness... are these dimensions of science themselves that alienate many women?"

          While I obviously don't agree that it is the scientific enterprise itself that is alienating for women, I do think there is a "science culture" that is not very welcoming. Science is very much an old boy network and if you are at all attractive it's assumed you get attention because of your sexual appeal rather than your intelligence, or competence. That one problem will shift as more women become senior scientists.

          Your insights and breakthroughs will be discounted as "luck". I worked my ass off in my second semester of Calculus (long time ago) and got the highest grade on the first term midterm. The prof knew I had worked hard, did he congratulate me on my achievement? No, he used it to shame the males into studying harder. As in, If a "girl" can get a better grade than you, you must not be studying.


          How do we address the down side of male socialization? While women tend to be socialized to be cooperative and eager to get along, men tend to be socialized to be very competitive and do a lot of oneupmanship. The current culture of science still rewards the ? (fake) male model but science itself benefits far more from a cooperative model. Cooperation and sharing, rather than competing would greatly enhance our scientific progress. The current model of rewarding those who publish breakthroughs first and the intense competition for funding is a serious detriment to scientific progress. It would be far better if scientists were well-supported and encouraged to share breakthroughs freely without worrying about who gets "credit". (Science is definitely moving in this direction by the way.)

          Now obviously, these are stereotypes and there is a great deal of variation within genders. The stereotypes are problematic but so is the underlying culture that values reason above feeling or perceiving, or even more troubling assumes they are mutually exclusive. I like the way women are socialized. I like it that they are encouraged to be open to their feelings and perceptions and to be sensitive to the feelings of others. These are qualities that can be very useful in science (and often are useful) but it's definitely not the way science is being done right now. This is why I think the issue is complicated.

          Which comes first the chicken, or the egg? I don't want to see girls socialized to be more like men. I think we need more social cooperation, not less, in science. Science is currently taught like a game geared towards boys (or the current socialization model of boys): lots of action and challenge and competition (who's the smartest) and I love it that girls aren't into that. I think that's a good sign.
          • Re: Women and Science

            Tue, July 10, 2007 - 3:30 PM
            "While I obviously don't agree that it is the scientific enterprise itself that is alienating for women, I do think there is a "science culture" that is not very welcoming."

            i think this idea is being dismissed perhaps too quickly. one suggestion, for example, made by some feminist philosophers of science is that scientists make more personal disclosures of their situatedness right inside the science itself. instead of assuming the objective voice, stating the possibly relevant personal history, agenda, focus, desires, goals of the research, and then show how you've attempted to filter out your own desires to reach a particular conclusion, if you have one. values in science is a hard thing to ferret out, but i'm no anti-science nut at all obviously. some have argued that the logical positivism and physicalism of science are a natural extension of masculinist culture, perhaps connected loosely to hunting roles in the past? not sure, but perhaps worthy of consideration.
            • Re: Women and Science

              Wed, July 11, 2007 - 10:32 AM
              blue-j,

              I think you're operating from a different set of assumptions about science. Personal disclosures are not really a big deal for anyone when you're looking at gene expression, the evolution of a trait, or the frequency of a particular genotype in a population. The objective voice--in the sense of "what are the facts" is what I like about science. The concerns you're mentioning are probably more relevant in fields like psychology or anthropology.

              I don't find the objective voice a problem at all. In fact, it's one of the things I like about science. Now what bias means and how it shapes research is an interesting question but I don't see it's relevance to the topic at hand. I can't imagine women not being interested in science because at the end of the day you need to address the facts. I'm not saying it isn't so, it's just not my experience and the idea surprises me. I suspect that certain aspects of science which are necessary have been meshed with aspects I would describe as science culture.
              • Re: Women and Science

                Wed, July 11, 2007 - 4:10 PM
                "The concerns you're mentioning are probably more relevant in fields like psychology or anthropology. "

                this is smart and true. this is where such suggestions have been made in my experience. the only place in the "hard sciences" that it may also be relevant is to make more visible the politics of funding and what hypotheses end up being tested, along with more awareness of the applications to which an investigation might be put.
          • Re: Women and Science

            Tue, July 10, 2007 - 6:02 PM
            Lori, do you read any of the blogs authored by female scientists over on Seed's Scienceblogs service? Suzanne Franks at Thus Spake Zuska scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/ , Dr, Joan Bushwell's Chimpanzee Refuge scienceblogs.com/bushwells/, Shelley Batts at Retrospectacle scienceblogs.com/retrospectacle/ and Tara C. Smith at Aetiology scienceblogs.com/aetiology/ have all addressed the very real difficulities and blatant discrimination that female scientists often face. They also link to many non-Seed affiliated blogs maintained by female scientists. These all make interesting reading no matter what your specialty.
            • Re: Women and Science

              Tue, July 10, 2007 - 8:29 PM
              thanks for sharing these links! my mentor in grad school, bonnie spanier, has written an excellent book on gender and molecular biology called "IM/PARTIAL SCIENCE: GENDER IDEOLOGY IN MOLECULAR BIOLOGY" that might interest you all. bonnie got her PhD in molecular biology at harvard before heading up the women's studies department at albany:

              www.albany.edu/ws/spanier.html

              she's working on a book about breast cancer now that will definitely be another masterpiece.
      • Re: Women and Science

        Tue, July 10, 2007 - 12:03 PM
        Yeah, a quickie internet review suggests parity until early adolescence. It's interesting how entrenched these viewpoints are.
  • Re: Women and Science

    Tue, July 10, 2007 - 6:15 AM
    it is very important topic, and i think that shannon pretty much described the roots of the problem - socialization. in the small things, in our unconscious actions and behaviour, we are socializing girls to be girls and boys to be boys. unless youd lock your daughter at home with you till the age of five, other people would make her feel more wanted in the non-science areas, and without even noticing - your daughter would learn how to hate science and math.
    i agree this is not a genetical issue.
    this is a sad example of how chauvinistic our society is, after all.
  • Re: Women and Science

    Thu, September 27, 2007 - 8:36 AM
    Kip - This is a great topic. My mom's a doctor so I grew up with these issues being discussed (and visible to me) - she was the only woman in her graduating class. While I chose to work in the arts because that's where my heart is, i was brought up in a science friendly environment and around research, and I love science (but certainly not uncritically). I very viscerally remember my mind being blown when I was about six by the concept of infinity and the fact that it had a symbol! (Yeah, you can see how I ended up in art! ;-)

    I think it's really about giving girl's opportunity and not isolating science from life or "feminine" interests. I think the idea that one can't be both "girly" and into math and science particularly turns a lot of teenage girls off of science and math. Not that I'm particularly advocating girlyness, more just a sort of demasculinization of science as it's taught to kids and teenagers. You know, how dinosaurs are the gateway to science for boys? Boys just generally get given more opportunities to be mechanical/engineer, pull things apart (girls are taught to keep things together! ;-) and be assertive in asking questions.

    I know a lot more girls and women who work in male dominated fields like gaming, tech and science these days so there's definitely more women doing so - however women's concerns vis a vis work and life tend to be quite different than mens'. And, certainly in an academic or institutional atmosphere where most of these jobs exist, there's a lot of very male competition and hierarchal manouvering that can effect a woman's career opportunities.

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