Well I got what you were saying jerry of others did`nt. Did you mean me when you mentioned that offer?

Thanks Amma.
yes I agree not all of us see liberation in the same way. I think though the simpliest rule of thumb is to `ask` those who wish to be liberated, in what way they would like that to be formed, & as for the rest give them the respect that they too know their own form of liberation, even if `freedom fighters (for want of a better word) do not really agree, & put this disagreement down to not `knowing` rather than `assuming` or putting themselves `above` in some respect, which quite often is the case.

{ As a rule there are always those who will want to "take care of" or "patronize" ("Matronize?") others with their own values and ideals}

I like how you use both the terms patronize & matronize. Yes me too, when I was doing my counselling & had to network with `caring` agencies/organisations. I think most if not all women knows what is best for themselves (individually)...we/they may not agree to the `place` they are at, but then we/they are not `there` either....& don`t always know the individuals journey & how they verbalise this in their own inner understanding. Its like watching a person walk from a to b...but interfer when they decide to go to c first, then maybe to a again before they get to b...does that make sense?.....we(humanity) are as a whole interfering, judgemental moralist, & until we understand the dynamics of our own `self` then we should not interfer in others `self` developement. `how-to`, self-help authors are making a mint out of these insecurities at the moment.

{At it's core, it seems to me, that Feminism is the notion that women can be trusted to amke their own choices and decisions}

At its core women I feel are still trying to understand themselves, therefore this inner war is reflective of how feminism is these days. In the early days the goals were simple & obvious, now they have become deeper & more searching. Within this feminism will explore its extreme natures & I think this could be happening now. So until `en-mass` women begin to understand their animus o(r male within)...whilst may I hasten to add they wish males to understand & explore his anima (female within) in order to respect his opposite & give women the freedom they seek on an equal footing....... they are missing looking at theirs!
To me the battle of the sexes, excuse the boring euphamism.....means first & foremost looking at oneself in ones entirety, before you can even begin to make any demands on another sex. I this applies bothways!
So no some women still do not trust `themselves`, & won`t until they see a bigger picture of their own internal sexual conflicts...so how can they then demand too much that others should trust them?
That is why I feel that sexworkers still have great issues with feminists, because they as women do not trust their choices & opinions.
Which is a shame, when sexworkers & women alike would benifit greatly from a true sisterhood. Mistrust is what stops a lot for women being a balanced sisterhood.

>TMlbo... I simply don't see where you are coming from.

I'm coming from the emotional space of this tribe being trolled before by folks who either 1) hate it when women politically organize or 2) are so bored that they can't come up with anything better to do than be a pain. In any case, it seems to me that most folks just listened or ignored the conversation. I objected to feminism being re-labelled as a 'hobby' of 'rich, upper-class white women'. Strange that not many other objected though...perhaps they're tired of having to interject?

My point was the universal suffrage in many countries was the results of upper-class women demanding their rights, organizing and building coalitions for change, historically in the West, those were mostly 'white upper-class women' doing the organizing at a national or regional level. To be sure, there have been women of all socioethnic-economic classes involved in womens' rights since Day One 2,000,000 y.a. But, in general, political movements involving women, especially in stable democracies, have come from the folks that their detractors considered to be 'hobbyists', eh?

A trick of the coyote/agent provocateur is to drive wedges between alliances within any political or social movement that defeat the attempts to build and maintain political agreements and networks. Labelling upper-class white women in the way done above fails to acknowledge the debt that we should all feel to many of the women that fall in to that group...if we honestly believe in egalitarianism and/or womens' rights. Not saying we should prostrate ourselves before their images--what I am saying is that all should understand that by using negative rhetoric that tends to makes coalition more difficult progress in womens' rights is hindered, not hastened.