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In another thread a male participant proposed that, even though the women in this tribe may find it hard to swallow, that men needed to be seduced into feminism. I'm not interested in making this about who said what, I'm more interested in exploring this idea which I found rather offensive on a number of levels. Now, my main objection to it is that it seems to me to be proposing that women should adopt the same tactics of pandering to men and seducing them to get what we want that were normal back in the 50s....that we aren't worth listening to because we're equal human beings. Am I the only one who finds this retarded? And actually a call for the sort of pandering to male desires and ego that feminism emerged to address? And doubly offensive to be asked to suck dick *and* swallow so that men can feel good about feminism and women?
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Unsu...
Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:03 PMBullshit.
Men don't need to be seduced. Feminism is not a gender-specific label. Anyone who believes fully and completely in women's rights is a feminist. (This includes acknowledging male privilege, that we live in a rape culture, etc).
It is not women's responsibility to make feminism acceptable to men. It for damn sure isn't our responsibility to "seduce" them to its merits. I love that he chose the word seduce.
Once again it is all about women accomodating men. No fucking way. You either believe women are human beings on the same level as men, and understand that we _do_ live in a misogynist culture, or...you don't. You're either a feminist, or you're hostile to feminism, and if you are hostile to feminism, you hate women.
“All decent people, men and women, are feminists. The only people who are not feminists are those who believe that women are inherently inferior or undeserving of the respect and opportunity afforded men. Either you are a feminist or a sexist/misogynist. There is no box marked ‘other’.” -ani d -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:27 PMNice ani d. quote btw :-)
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Unsu...
Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:09 PMWhere the hell was this statement made, anyway? I'd like to see it in its original context. -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 12:26 PMSorry, I just tried to find the thread and I haven't. I'll keep looking. Really though, it's not about the person who made the post but rather the idea. I'm not sure if they specifically used the word seduce but they did preface it with "hard to swallow". I'll send you the link privately since, like I said, it's more the idea being presented that I find problematic and want to discuss if anyone's interested :-) I am also open to hearing other perspectives - while this idea kinda makes me spit out my coffee maybe someone else thinks it has merit and I'd be interested in hearing why they think so even if I don't agree or my mind stays unchanged on the subject :-)
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 1:25 PMWhy in the world would we need to "seduce" men into feminism? Do we need their Permission? By the way, women are the majority not the minority. I think we can do just fine persuading women of their worth and let men work it out for themselves. -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 1:43 PMlori- That's pretty much my feeling about it too. I mean, I was happy to have male support at the barricades or on a Take-back-the-night or pro-choice march back in the day. And I truly respect and appreciate the men out there who have taken it upon themselves to educate other men about issues of violence towards women and other essential women's issues. And, of course, men who respect and treat women with equality and compassion on a day to day basis (that's where it's really at, rhetoric can be mighty empty). That said, I don't see how appealing to male needs and making it all about how good feminism is for men (when feminism just isn't about men's needs) can be anything but antithetical to actual feminism. I don't advocate shutting out men, we share the world with them, I just don't think it's about converting them to a feminist religion or whatever. Firstly, feminism is just too diverse, personal and dynamic for that to even be possible since each new generation of women tailors it to fit her times and her needs. -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, October 13, 2007 - 11:17 PMthis is an interesting point... if anything i probably fall into the 'seducing' category... but not because i support it in any political way, just because it is my nature or personality. i'm a empathetic in the extreme, and it comes naturally to me to try and reach people where they live... male or female.
so i will adjust my style of communication to what i think the person i am talking to is most capable of receiving. and in a way i am 'swallowing' a lot of shit by doing that. ......... i guess i don't do it all the time... only when i think it has some chance of actually Affecting someone... of reaching them, having some effect. then it seems worth it.
but i also get what you are saying Fifi, and to be honest, it makes me reflect and wonder if i don't take on too much......... the alternative seems just as difficult for me though..... i find rifts in communication to be almost unbearable. i would say most of the time i spend on tribe i am trying to mend what i perceive to be misunderstandings...
i've been called an idealist........ i've also been called pathologically optimistic. i call myself 'quixotic'. lol.
anyway, i'm torn on this, because i do think there should be a place in a strong woman/feminist culture for nurturing sensitive people. should i stop being the person that i am, the person that is most natural for me, because it seems 'unfeminist'? .... i feel like defending the validity of my nature is part of MY feminist expression... the legitimacy of nurturing and caring... the value of it.
anyway, i'm kind of tired so i may not be making a whole lot of sense... i'm not sure if i really got my point across, but i hope i did! -
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Unsu...
Re: seducing men to feminism
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 1:42 AMI don't understand what you're saying at all, because who said that there's no room in feminism for nurturing and sensitivity?
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 5:59 AMCloé - I don't think anyone's trying to suggest that being nurturing is bad or not part of feminism, or that there's no room for nurturing sensitive people in feminism. I've found that the overwhelming majority of feminists are nurturing and sensitive - the very act of looking after other women is nurturing and being sensitive to needs. It's also important to remember, on a psychological level, that we can't give to others what we don't give to ourselves. (Though we may well give a facsimile in hopes of getting the real thing, and love and approval, in return.) There's a big difference between being voluntarily nurturing to someone who is open to healing and honest about their wounds, and between trying to manipulate someone by appealing to their vanity or self interest (or tiptoeing around and appeasing their pain to avoid conflict or harm to oneself). Ultimately, with this tactic all you'd end up with is a bunch of guys who call themselves feminists for as long as their ego is massaged and they get what they want, a situation where male needs are prioritized over female...kind of like the real world. This seems like a waste of time and energy that's earmarked for nurturing women to me (and doesn't seem like a game plan that would create men who nurture and care about women.) There's also a big difference between being nurturing and avoiding conflict by being submissive. I'm talking in generalized terms here not about you. Of course, only you can determine for yourself what purpose keeping the peace serves for you (and what the ultimate cost is for maintaining this peace).
It's great to be able to adjust conversational styles and have empathy. Maybe it would be useful for us to look at the different types of nurturing out there, the history of motherhood and associated ideals, and which ones are actually healthy for all involved? Keeping the peace, while it sounds idealistic, isn't always. Keeping the peace is innately about maintaining the status quo, which can get pretty problematic when one is trying to change the status quo. Historically, the only way women have gotten change is by breaking the peace. Whether it was the suffragettes who refused to be the good wife and cook and clean and chained themselves to fences until they got the vote, or women in the 60s and 70s speaking up about equality and burning their bras. I think it's important to remember that nurturing and keeping the peace aren't always the same thing. In fact, keeping the peace at the expense of true nurturing can actually be damaging to all involved...particularly if it's a compulsion not a choice.
I guess another question would be, can one be a feminist and totally avoid conflict? -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 6:26 AMEven Ghandi broke the peace to attain his goals, he just did it in a non-violent way :-) -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 12:28 PMFifi......... i think you're right. and what i think i am getting at is that i am conflicted about this........ because... well, you hit it on the nose, 'can i avoid conflict and still be a feminist?'
i loath conflict and i am liable to opt for 'seducing' over confrontation when i feel threatened. i responded because i feel like what you are saying applies to me. i don't think i'm totally 'servile', but i definitely waste a lot of time and energy pandering to people's (men's) egos in a kind of gently subversive tactic of trying to get them to 'understand'... ironically, a lot of these men/people claim to be sympathetic to feminism.
now, for me personally, the line between asserting my right to speak my mind without having to defend myself or apologize is blurred with the line of being nurturing and sensitive.. and empathetic... i am confused about the distinction within myself, and i am trying to figure it out. because i think it is crucial... for example, how can i really 'give consent' if i am not sure of the line between consent and acquiescence? how do i know when i sincerely want to please someone else, and when i can't see beyond someone else's desires to my own?
i am fortunate enough to be involved in a relationship with someone who engages with me in plays of 'power-exchange'... ironically, this is allowing me to (finally) really understand what it means to want something, and to give someone else what they want. i'm learning and growing a lot as a result, and feeling more and more confident and able to assert myself.
it helps to read the words of strong grounded women such as yourself, Fifi. i've been kind of fascinated with you for a while.. how you talk and present yourself... i'm always in awe of women who never apologize for their right to exist. i'm realizing more and more how deeply my mother (the epitome of subservience during my childhood) is ingrained in me.. and i'm trying to separate my admiration for her incredible quiet strength, grace and beauty, from her suffering as a woman who was incapable of living independently of a man.
so anyway... i appreciate this... and... well, i'm trying to put it to good use. for example, i completely changed my 'apologetic, soothing' approach in this thread where some guy was being a total prick.
spiritualbdsm.tribe.net/thread...4bf94ae
maybe i'm clumsy or whatever... but....... i dunno. i'm young and still learning.
so thanks for being out there and letting me learn from you.... all of you. -
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Unsu...
Re: seducing men to feminism
Sun, October 14, 2007 - 2:51 PMWell, this may not be a popular attitude, but no. If you "pander" to men's egos you are selling out and there is nothing feminist about that.
The sexist society we live in rather requires conflict. You loathe conflict--I loathe the idea of someone kissing men's ass because they'd rather not be confrontational.
There's two kinds of men in this world: those who are threatened by feminism because they know, deep down, that it threatens their privilege, and those who understand exactly what feminism is and why women need it. The latter are the men who accept and embrace feminism as it is. The former...well. Sugarcoating and watering-down feminism in order to make it more appealing and less threatening to that group does nothing but defeat the whole point of feminism.
The idea that to be a feminist means you are a lot of things, but you are NOT nurturing, sensitive, caring, empathetic...it's a complete and utter bullshit myth, and it's propagated by people with an invested interest in discrediting feminism. It's also a myth to think that a woman--with or without feminism--can be strong without simultaneously being nurturing and sensitive. -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 6:45 AMNimbrethil - "The idea that to be a feminist means you are a lot of things, but you are NOT nurturing, sensitive, caring, empathetic...it's a complete and utter bullshit myth, and it's propagated by people with an invested interest in discrediting feminism. It's also a myth to think that a woman--with or without feminism--can be strong without simultaneously being nurturing and sensitive."
Agreed.
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Mon, October 15, 2007 - 6:38 AMcloé, well I think you've hit on some of the personal issues that are also political ones that feminism emerged to address. Standing up for ourselves takes practice but it comes to feel natural to affirm our personal boundaries and know our own desires. I think you'll quite enjoy the freedom that comes from being able to do so :-) Exploring the dynamics of power and role playing with a trusted partner can be a great way to explore different parts of yourself and "try on" different personas or attitudes in a safe environment.
Most of us learn how to be in the world, and navigate our way through it, from our mothers. The vast majority of the time, they're doing the best they can. No woman is super human - even our mom - and they, of course, learned how to be in the world from their mom and so on down the line.
It sounds to me that at this point in time you're starting to explore and discover what your true nature is - you may end being surprised to find that your fear of conflict has more to do with who you've learned to be than who you essentially are. When we've been trained to say 'yes', sometimes it can be rather surprising to find just how many "nos" we've pushed down to be able to conform and say "yes". Do remember ever standing up for something you wanted or your own feelings rather than first considering someone else's? And how you were responded to for doing this?
All lines tend to be blurry and context specific - such is the nature of boundaries and lines. The better you know yourself, the better you'll know your own threshold. You're clearly a smart cookie and you're asking yourself all the right questions. You're the only one who can ultimately answer these questions for yourself but I'd be happy to refer you to any books or information that I've found useful over the years, or share any of my own experiences (with the caveat that I've got plenty of baggage myself, I've just been upacking it for a long time ;-). One of my favorite books that I feel all women should read at some point in their lives is Women Who Run With the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estés. It's a good place to start if you want to understand how women can be nurturing and strong, and how saying "no" can be a loving act towards both ourselves and others. -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 9:01 PMthanks Fifi, i'm going to look up that book.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 5:01 AMCloé - You most welcome, it's always a pleasure to share books I love :-) It's funny, I'm on my third copy since I kept lending it out to people and forgetting who. The current hard cover copy I have I got at a second hand books sale while on a road trip with a friend. It was one of those weird occurrences. After browsing through the books, I started to think "okay, what do I *want* a copy of?" and then found it on the shelf! It felt like magic (even though I'd probably seen the title on the self subconsciously)...love those moments! :-)
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 5:06 PMCould this be more of an issue of semantics, rather than a call to revert to inappropriate tactics? I've noticed that, when talking to some men, they misunderstand the meaning of feminism (as many people do), and that a little clearing up of details is all that is needed. I don't consider that to be seduction, but then again, what is seduction but the process of deliberately enticing a person to engage in some sort of behavior? (In this case, enticing someone to realign the perspectives they have on gender equality.) -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Thu, December 6, 2007 - 4:19 AMhm. I think I have more influence on the men I date than the men I don't, and like to think that I"ve introduced them to feminist ideas that they might not have encountered had we not been dating.
In a practical sense, then yes, I would say I've "seduced" men to consciousness of feminism.... whether or not it actually plays out in our relationship is another story! sometimes it's manifested as an "i never thought of that before" statement, more often I still wind up doing the cooking at family functions.
I think that feminism in relationships is a whole topic that needs to be explored (perhaps in its own tribe?). Women's lib gave us legal rights in the workplace through the back door; however, women's power at home and in other areas of our lives comes limping along behind. we're still doing the lion's share of work at home.
Unfortunately, the job usually falls on women's shoulders to educate men about feminism. If men have more socioeconomic power, there's no point in them giving it up without good reason, and the argument that feminism will give them more emotional freedom, or that now their woman will be more assertive in the bedroom, hasn't enticed as many over to the other side as you'd think.
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 11:52 PMBlossom...yours is quite an astute observation and is quite refreshing for a change. You have succeeded in stepping away from the hair-trigger switch hovered over by most individuals entangled in the usual boring "us vs them" position. The act of deliberate enticement (some see it as an art) is ubiquitous across the animal kingdom, humans being a part of this subset is not absolved of these behaviors. It is not a matter of who is responsible for teaching whom but is instead a part of our nature. When viewed in that light, it makes it our collective responsibility to teach, cherish, and nurture each other in this regard.
A male feminist
Bless
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 5:29 AMYeah lime seduce this man here lulu.com/astrology as he thinks man has two minds, one you can not seduce, the other is the devil. -
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Re: seducing men to feminism
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 11:22 AMi am all about "education" but "seduction" seems a bit far fetched and backwards with regard to women bringing feminist ideals, activism, philosophy, and method to men.
i wouldn't have the inclination to bend that way
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